I must not be explaining it clearly. What I mean is when you dual wield, but CHOOSE to fire ONLY a single pistol, you aren't adding the additional difficulty die. So then you are basically firing the same as if you just had one pistol. But if you NEED to you can fire both weapons (at the +1 difficulty) with the chance to do more damage. You have no versatility when single wielding, and no chance to risk more damage for less accuracy.

So why would anyone choose a single pistol? Compared to dual wielding but only firing a single pistol (ie: more choice, more versatility). The only upside to a single pistol is having a hand free.

Well you have that same thing if you have Quick Draw and the second pistol holstered too. Then you can run around with one pistol, and whip out the second one as an incidental, basically costing you nothing mechanically. So basically having one pistol holstered and one drawn would then be what you refer to as "= the end game for pistol characters" too (with that talent, which I think appears quite a few places on talent trees oriented towards firing ranged weapons, at the very least). Which I guess you could say it is, but there are enough drawbacks I think: Encumbrance, increased difficulty and the inability to do anything but shooting with you hands... so yeah, it's as you say, but for some reason most players - at least that I've encountered - just get one pistol, sometimes due to money, but encumbrance comes into it too of course.

I see what you are saying now.

Mechanically:

• Two maneuvers to pull out both weapons. (may not sound like much, but it's worth noting.)
• Two actions to pull out both weapons (if both weapons are concealed).
• Encumbrance (this adds up quick)

Narratively (which should never be underestimated)

• Keeping a hand free (as we mentioned)
• character flavor (Cad Bane used 2 guns, but Han Solo did not, both are cool characters)
• Credits/Resources (this holds more water for starting characters or campaigns where resources are intentionally low).

I must not be explaining it clearly. What I mean is when you dual wield, but CHOOSE to fire ONLY a single pistol, you aren't adding the additional difficulty die. So then you are basically firing the same as if you just had one pistol. But if you NEED to you can fire both weapons (at the +1 difficulty) with the chance to do more damage. You have no versatility when single wielding, and no chance to risk more damage for less accuracy.

So why would anyone choose a single pistol? Compared to dual wielding but only firing a single pistol (ie: more choice, more versatility). The only upside to a single pistol is having a hand free.

Well you have that same thing if you have Quick Draw and the second pistol holstered too. Then you can run around with one pistol, and whip out the second one as an incidental, basically costing you nothing mechanically. So basically having one pistol holstered and one drawn would then be what you refer to as "= the end game for pistol characters" too (with that talent, which I think appears quite a few places on talent trees oriented towards firing ranged weapons, at the very least). Which I guess you could say it is, but there are enough drawbacks I think: Encumbrance, increased difficulty and the inability to do anything but shooting with you hands...

Except Quick Draw would be a talent investment, correct? Whereas any old joe can pick up a second pistol and have that versatility. And even with Quick Draw the "end game" is still two pistols. I guess I was just hoping the rules would branch into high volume, low accuracy fire (dual wielding) or high accuracy, low volume (single pistol).

Again from a pure mechanical point of view, regardless of what flavor fits a character.

I see what you are saying now.

Mechanically:

• Two maneuvers to pull out both weapons. (may not sound like much, but it's worth noting.)
• Two actions to pull out both weapons (if both weapons are concealed).
• Encumbrance (this adds up quick)

Narratively (which should never be underestimated)

• Keeping a hand free (as we mentioned)
• character flavor (Cad Bane used 2 guns, but Han Solo did not, both are cool characters)
• Credits/Resources (this holds more water for starting characters or campaigns were resources are intentionally low).

Yeah exactly. The first list can be even shorter if the weapons are already drawn (say in a known hostile area such as a pirate base). I'll have to see how the Encumbrance factors in with the specific characters I have in mind, to see whether it'd be a factor or not.

I guess there is just something in my brain that has a hard time accepting a worse mechanical solution purely for flavor when it comes to combat characters . Don't get me wrong, I'm fine having a weak, social focused droid who uses a single pistol. But for an intentionally combat orientated pistol using character, dual wielding is the way to go.

Except Quick Draw would be a talent investment, correct? Whereas any old joe can pick up a second pistol and have that versatility. And even with Quick Draw the "end game" is still two pistols. I guess I was just hoping the rules would branch into high volume, low accuracy fire (dual wielding) or high accuracy, low volume (single pistol).

Again from a pure mechanical point of view, regardless of what flavor fits a character.

Well. I sort of get that, but I guess the designers expect something else from players. Other games have gone that route, whether those games are good, bad, better or worse than this doesn't come into it, but it's a different design philosophy I guess. Which I - surprise surprise - happen to agree with on some levels.

Although I'm not sure I've heard of a game that forces you to attack with both hands if you have weapons in them, or apply a specific numerical penalty for having to weapons drawn.

I can go play HARP, Rolemaster or BRP if I want to. And I do that and have done it for years. Those are good games, but different to this.

Except Quick Draw would be a talent investment, correct? Whereas any old joe can pick up a second pistol and have that versatility. And even with Quick Draw the "end game" is still two pistols. I guess I was just hoping the rules would branch into high volume, low accuracy fire (dual wielding) or high accuracy, low volume (single pistol).

Again from a pure mechanical point of view, regardless of what flavor fits a character.

Well. I sort of get that, but I guess the designers expect something else from players. Other games have gone that route (although I'm not sure I've heard of a game that forces you to attack with both hands if you have weapons in them, or apply a specific numerical penalty for having to weapons drawn), whether those games are good, bad, better or worse than this doesn't come into it, but it's a different design philosophy I guess. Which I - surprise surprise - happen to agree with on some levels.

I can go play HARP, Rolemaster or BRP if I want to. And I do that and have done it for years. Those are good games, but different to this.

Hmm, except their design philosophy seems...incomplete, or inconsistent? It feels like there are a few rifle options, but less so with pistols. Again this is just Edge of the Empire, maybe the later books added more.

Either way in our case we have a pilot who will dual wield, and be happy to do so from a flavor and mechanical point of view. Then a droid Doctor who is fine with one pistol, since he needs his hands free to patch everyone up as is. And then a Rodian melee character who, even if they dual wield, we'll probably retheme to something more fitting like a double-headed staff. The other two characters use two handed rifles.

EDIT: I guess in general that inconsistent feel is what I get from EoTE. Don't get me wrong, I love the system, but in some cases they act like they want it abstract, loose, fast playing...and then you get these ridiculous spaceship combat rules which are WAY too gritty and detailed.

Hmm, except their design philosophy seems...incomplete? It feels like there are a few rifle options, but less so with pistols. Again this is just Edge of the Empire, maybe the later books added more.

Either way in our case we have a pilot who will dual wield, and be happy to do so from a flavor and mechanical point of view. Then a droid Doctor who is fine with one pistol, since he needs his hands free to patch everyone up as is. And then a Rodian melee character who, even if they dual wield, we'll probably retheme to something more fitting like a double-headed staff. The other two characters use two handed rifles.

I wouldn't say incomplete. Although, if you're referring only to the EotE core rulebook, then yeah, two heavy or normal blaster pistols is a pretty decent combo and yes, the selection is rather limited, but get a look in Suns of Fortune, Enter the Unknown, Far Horizons, Dangerous Covenants and you can have more fun with pistols most certainly. Although, the dual combo would of course be superior still, and you could probably find quite a crazy combo of stuff. Or just get an auto-firing blaster pistol... then you're set.

Hmm, except their design philosophy seems...incomplete? It feels like there are a few rifle options, but less so with pistols. Again this is just Edge of the Empire, maybe the later books added more.

Either way in our case we have a pilot who will dual wield, and be happy to do so from a flavor and mechanical point of view. Then a droid Doctor who is fine with one pistol, since he needs his hands free to patch everyone up as is. And then a Rodian melee character who, even if they dual wield, we'll probably retheme to something more fitting like a double-headed staff. The other two characters use two handed rifles.

I wouldn't say incomplete. Although, if you're referring only to the EotE core rulebook, then yeah, two heavy or normal blaster pistols is a pretty decent combo and yes, the selection is rather limited, but get a look in Suns of Fortune, Enter the Unknown, Far Horizons, Dangerous Covenants and you can have more fun with pistols most certainly. Although, the dual combo would of course be superior still, and you could probably find quite a crazy combo of stuff. Or just get an auto-firing blaster pistol... then you're set.

Good to know that supplements expanded the pistols. I am working with the core rulebook only, and will be for the foreseeable future, so my scope was limited to that.

Not quite, he's saying that a PC could always run around with 2 blasters in his hand to optimize his choices, even if most of the time he only shoots with one. Which does seem kind of hokey, but personally if a player wanted to do that I wouldn't care much. The other players would probably rib them..."Say, you ever gonna use that thing? Or is it just a fancy decoration?"

Sure. A PC could.

Mine never did. Even when I did pull a pistol, it was only the one. Of course my skill was 2G, so tossing another Diff on there would have made the roll futile.

I know a PC doesn't have to, and thematically my character wouldn't want too (a Droid doctor). I'm just sad that the rules provide versatility for dual wielding, but not for intentionally single wielding. So like I said, the only REAL downside to dual wielding is not having a free hand, because you can still shoot 1 pistol exactly the same, but have the OPTION to shoot both (for increased difficulty). So like I said, versatility, and a better "end game" for pistols than sticking to one.

I honestly think the free hand is a significant issue. It depends on your style of gaming I suppose, but you have to draw and then holster that thing. I foresee a lot of lost weapons when someone needs to pilot a vehicle or grab a cable or unlock a door in a hurry. Especially when the fight has gone bad and you're making a fast exit.

I honestly think the free hand is a significant issue. It depends on your style of gaming I suppose, but you have to draw and then holster that thing. I foresee a lot of lost weapons when someone needs to pilot a vehicle or grab a cable or unlock a door in a hurry. Especially when the fight has gone bad and you're making a fast exit.

Yeah, an extra Maneuver doesn't sound like a lot, but as soon as you add in any narrative or environmental effects it adds up fast. In my experience EotE combats rarely begin with weapons drawn or characters in cover, and almost always occur in environments where a free hand is more versatile than a second gun. Some people have backup pistols, but noone has ever even tried a two-weapon attack. I've done it once or twice with NPCs for flavor, and just to make sure I knew how to assemble the pool.

Ironically, two pistols can be more problematic than one rifle in some situations, since a blaster rifle can be held in one hand to free up the other, but the second pistol would need to be holstered or dropped.

And Bosky, if you're really worried, you could always house rule it. Maybe prevent a dual-wielder from taking the Aim Maneuver without narratively having something to brace both weapons on.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is perfectly acceptable, and very defensable, for the GM to add Setback dice too, or even just require, a roll for what would normally be an easy maneuver.

I mean try jumping a bar with no hands free... or even just opening a door.

Seems like you sacrifice a bit just to Dual wield.

It also has to be compared to bigger weapons that have autofire. That's another way you can get extra hits by scoring more successes, and it comes without the difficulty boost. Not saying it makes dual wielding irrelevant. Just that they're comparable.

Autofire does require the same difficulty boost and same advantage cost to activate. They're very similar, mechanically.

Autofire does require the same difficulty boost and same advantage cost to activate. They're very similar, mechanically.

You're right. I misremembered the rules - dual-wielding and autofire are really similar, so if you're happy with one, you ought to be more or less happy with the other. Unless flavour reasons are a problem.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is perfectly acceptable, and very defensable, for the GM to add Setback dice too, or even just require, a roll for what would normally be an easy maneuver.

I mean try jumping a bar with no hands free... or even just opening a door.

This is a key point that needs to be kept in mind (particularly by the GM). Some actions require a free hand, or are simple more difficult without a free hand.

What if you want to open a door? How often does it happen that a player quietly forgets that fact that both hands are occupied when one of those hands is needed for something else? He goes through the door and nobody asks: say, how did you do that with both pistols in your hands?

It can be a pain, but I don't think that players should get away with this kind of thing. He has decided to use 2 weapons and he must know that at some point it is going to put him in a situation where he may have to make a tricky decision.

For example, what if the character is really in a hurry to get through the door. It is going to take him one manoeuvre to open the door, and one to go through.

Dropping a weapon is an incidental, while holstering is a manoeuvre. So he cannot go though the door without dropping a weapon!

What if you want to open a door?

So obviously you shoot the control panel just so to open it, just so to close it, and totally obliterate it to lock it into position.

I guess I was just hoping the rules would branch into high volume, low accuracy fire (dual wielding) or high accuracy, low volume (single pistol).

Again from a pure mechanical point of view, regardless of what flavor fits a character.

Hmm, except their design philosophy seems...incomplete, or inconsistent? It feels like there are a few rifle options, but less so with pistols. Again this is just Edge of the Empire, maybe the later books added more.

Either way in our case we have a pilot who will dual wield, and be happy to do so from a flavor and mechanical point of view. Then a droid Doctor who is fine with one pistol, since he needs his hands free to patch everyone up as is. And then a Rodian melee character who, even if they dual wield, we'll probably retheme to something more fitting like a double-headed staff. The other two characters use two handed rifles.

I think the problem you're having with it is that you haven't quite made the paradigm shift away from RPGs whose combat is scaled at a few seconds per round as opposed to one that is a minute or so. It may not seem like a big difference but what can't be easily explained in a few seconds can be done without issue in a minute. The other thing is the narrative nature of EotE and that a combat roll isn't just whether or not you hit and how much damage you do but is actually telling you whats happening in the entire scene while you act. This is why you can spend Advantages and Triumphs generated by your attack roll on things other than just your attack. You must unlearn what you have learned...

Something that will help is to not continue calling it Dual Wielding because as has been mentioned before Dual Wielding comes with a lot of other RBG's baggage that just doesn't fit in this rules set. I know it may sound like just a semantic thing but Two-Weapon Fighting and Dual Wielding are two different things and repeating it at your table can help your players, and yourself, remember the difference.

What if you want to open a door?

Like brassieres, there are no door handles in space.

So obviously you shoot the control panel just so to open it, just so to close it, and totally obliterate it to lock it into position.

OK, did not see that one coming...

What if you want to open a door?

So obviously you shoot the control panel just so to open it, just so to close it, and totally obliterate it to lock it into position.

Hmmm, I have to concede that this does actually appear to be the way it works in Star Wars. Maybe that's why everyone and their sister carries blasters - you need them to enter and exit places.

Hmmm, I have to concede that this does actually appear to be the way it works in Star Wars. Maybe that's why everyone and their sister carries blasters - you need them to enter and exit places.

Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but have you ever tried to fire two pistols at the same time? It can be done, but you're lucky if you hit anything but the wall behind your target.

Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but have you ever tried to fire two pistols at the same time? It can be done, but you're lucky if you hit anything but the wall behind your target.

Are you a Stormtrooper?? Is that way you can't hit the broadside of a barn???

I can't think of any setting right now, where you are more likely find the ground giving way or go sliding off a roof or end up clinging to a speeding droid over a lake of lava or be pulled by the ankles towards a Sarlacc pit, than Star Wars.

And someone wants to give up their one remaining free hand? Madness!

Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but have you ever tried to fire two pistols at the same time? It can be done, but you're lucky if you hit anything but the wall behind your target.

Bringing up realism with Star Wars is a silly idea.