From what I'm led to believe, the ruling on the value of any multiple copies created by Turnabout has been reversed by James.

Is this correct? Is it wrong?

Clarify the hell out of this for me, please =(

MegaGeese said:

Wha'choo talkin' 'bout Wakeen?

I've lit the Hata Signal. But this is the first I've heard about this. That being said, you're kinda vague in what you're stating, so he's probably going to scratch his head and say "huh?" or more specifically "..."

I believe he is talking about how multiples generated from reversing with turn about (I.E. Copying feline spike then using multiple:2) have 0 dmg 0 speed

Hayamachop said:

Well the Hata Signal is currently failing.

So if that's what you guys are saying... my current understanding is that Turnabout makes Turnabout an exact copy of the attack. Say Feline spike, meaning it's a 4h 8D attack, with the multiple ability.

Multiples made off of that card have 4h 8d.

Granted all of the cards are printed 0s 0D. So anything referencing printed will consider those values as 0.

So it HAS been reversed!

Originally, it was ruled that multiples created by Turnabout are 0M0, due to Turnabout having no printed values for those things (and multiple copies, of course, are copies of the printed values of an attack).

But it's my understanding that at Cannats, such was not the case.

Ohohohoho...things just got very interesting.

the wording of turnabout states this card becomes an EXACT PRINTED copy of the attack so it would have the printed stats of the attack it copied.

Antigoth said:

It got changed back to now that turnabout's multiples now have a value? when did this happen?

From 2.14.2.4 of the AGR... Multiples copies the PRINTED values, which would mean multiples of turnabout are 0m0

As far as turnabout being a PRINTED copy, that just means it copies everything printed on the original card, text box, difficulty, control, block mod/zone, etc

MegaGeese said:

Thise is what i thought too but when iwe called mr platinume he just read the card and says it copied everything the exact same when at the teenesee regionals they said it was errattad.this is crap and we deffinetly need an official answer.

yes. it copies everything. Thats how it gets the multiple ability.

But, by definition, multiples copy the PRINTED values on the card they are copying. The card they are copying (turnabout) has no PRINTED values. It IS a PRINTED COPY, but this just means it has non-printed values equal to printed values from the original card.

Smazzurco said:

I don't see how much more printed an exact printed copy of something would need to be Lynette's doesn't even say that and it becomes an exact printed copy so I don't see why when Turnabout says on the card Exact Printed Copy it wouldn't retain printed values, It also would make no sense because Lynette's becomes the same card type as the card copied so it could become a foundation. Neither come to the aid or Reversal say printed copy just copy. Card text says it is a printed copy so it should become basically the same as the attack in your card pool. That line of text would serve no purpose if it just copied the attack without printed values

Unless the card gets an errata which I do not see why it should, it should be considered what the card says an exact PRINTED copy. But typically card text of something different from the rules would take precidence over rules in the book, however a ruling should be made to avoid further problems that this would cause

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=30&efcid=5&efidt=38837

I do believe the intent on turnabout was to say that the multiple gets the cards printed stats as opposed to getting the stats with bonuses. This has been ruled before and I have not to this date seen an offical reversal on these boards or anywhere else.

The fact that it says printed still dosent change the fact that the card in your card pool is infact a turnabout and not a feline spike. If a card refers to a printed value, its not looking at effcts, its looking at what is printed on the card. When you play the muliple the gamestate does not see feline spike in your card pool, it sees turnabout.

Ill not argue its a very poorly written card, but it has been rules on and after browsing Turnabout in the search i could not find a single example of this being reversed. Quite the contrary i have only found posts reaffirming that feline spike multiples would be 4 difficulty 2 control 0 speed 0 damage with no block modifier and not have the copied symbol from turnabout.

People need to stop looking at the old verions of the rules. Seriously. Let's look at what the new TR says about values and such....

2.14.2.4 " ... Each of the cards placed into your card pool counts as a copy of the Multiple attack with a blank text box and speed and damage values equal to the printed values of the original attack. ..."

2.14.2.4.3 Multiple copies have no printed values of their own. The face down card is only a representation of an attack, and anything that references printed values of the attack will return a "null" ( or "zero" for a number).

So, the rules reference only the Multiple copies having no printed values. If it said "becomes an exact copy" like Come to the Aid, it doesn't have printed values. If it says "as a copy" like Seal of Dowsing, it doesn't have printed values. Turnabout says the card becomes an exact printed copy. That means that it has printed values. It also means that the multiple copies would also work as a regular attack.

Except that printed Values still explicitly refer to the numbers physically on the card. Turnabout has no printed values for damage and speed, period. This has be argue 1000s of times and its always the same answer. I fully expect an offical ruling to point at the "exact printed" part of turn about to refer to it copying printed and unmodified stats from the card.

Because the rules changed, doesn't mean (to me) that the logic behind the old "Multiple copies of a multiple copy are 0spd 0dmg attacks with no attack zone" ruling, before the TR expressly forbade their creation. Turnabout is in the same boat as a multiple copy -- it is a card with no attack statistics such as speed or damage, and is asked to act as though it were an attack. When you try to create a "copy of the Multiple attack with... speed and damage equal to the printed values of the original attack", the game state sees there is no printed value on Turnabout, and assigns the default (zero) values.

...although, as much as it screws with my brain to say it, the terms "a copy of the Multiple attack" and "the original attack" could refer to the orange card which Turnabout itself is copying, so a Turned-about Feline Spike would use the actual Feline Spike to reference for its multiple copies.

I honestly think that this card is a perfect example of "The Golden Rule" in the tournament rules

R: After your opponent resolves an attack, this card becomes an exact printed copy of the attack and gets a resource symbol of your choice. This attack has its own Enhance Step, Block Step, and Damage Step.

Note that it says it becomes an "exact printed copy of the attack" NOT that it becomes "an exact copy of the printed attack".

The latter is how it has been ruled to work, but is NOT what it says. We have MANY instances (especially with the new sets) of cards becoming things that they are not. Grammatically this suggests that it is just like Desperation (which also changes the printed values on cards) and Character/Character Only (which are not printed if you're not playing the character). That means if I give my 5s/5d attack +10 speed, and +10 damage, and it doesn't kill you, your turnabout will be a printed 15 speed/ 15 damage attack.

Which would also mean, if you interpreted this with proper English usages, you COULD copy a multiple attack, and it wouldn't be a 000 attack. It would be a printed copy of the current values of the attack. Speaking of which people somehow keep coming up with the idea that an undefined zone would default to "mid". There is no basis for that. If you have an attack with an undefined zone, it is unblockable. The AGR specifies when you can block exhaustively, but undefined is not High, Mid or Low.

This does bring up some interesting thigns too. For example:

If the attacker is below half life, and the attack has, say, Desperation: 2, the Turnabout copy would have a printed Difficulty of 2, right!?

.

This is a funny argument, and actually the biggest problem I've ever had with UFS and rulings.

I can sumise it as the battle between 2 words that coexist or attempt to coexist in the world of UFS, but just never do based on their widely understood definitions in the English language.

And the words are... drumroll... COPY and PRINTED.

What happens when you COPY something? You are creating another one of something, i.e. there are now two of something, there are two copies actually. Does this newer copy have PRINTED VALUES on it? If the original did, **** right it does! It is a COPY (in some cases EXACT COPY) (and in special cases an EXACT PRINTED COPY) of the original. And the original had PRINT on it so if you were to COPY the original you would have to have print on the COPY. hmmm... so why, when we refer to PRINTED values, do we refer back to the literal source (i.e. piece of cardboard face down) and not the existing source, according to current game state - golden rules applied - as dude has mentioned, that often indicate that something is supposed to treated as if it is something that it is not literally.

I guess my point is, why do we abandon the golden rule, or in short dis the definition of COPY in favor of the defintion of the word PRINTED?

Is it an order of operations thing? Does the word PRINTED mean, 'please refer to what something is in the original sense', i.e. not after you have applied all of the current context to it?

Does the word PRINTED evoke some sort of 'this means the exact ink you see in front of you' feeling that overrides our understanding of the golden rule and everything else the cards have told us to believe?

Or, are we simply cheapening the word COPY? Does COPY mean something, but when someone references what a COPY is in isolation (i.e. in a world without the thing it is a COPY of - kind of the abandonment of the golden rule here), the COPY itself is nothing?

I do understand that the designers started to use the word PRINTED to distinguish between a card and something that is a copy of a card because they wanted to say, "please refer to what this literally is " and not, "please refer to what your current understanding of this is, after applying what the golden rule means and what the word COPY means to you in an ability recently played or currently active".

In any case, you can see why this is always a funny argument to me. And I think the reason it is, is simply becuase it is much easier to reference 'what a card is in isolation of the golden rule and game situation' with a word like PRINTED than it is to use a bunch of words to explain that the game designers want you to reference what something is in isolation of the game situation before it.

I guess, becuase I am confusing myself the more I think about it, my conclusion is: I AM NOT SURPRISED THERE HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT RULINGS ON THIS CARD IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES, and you can't blame the rule mods or the in-person judges becuase this concept is not black and white. There needs to be a specific response or errata that lets everyone know what turnabout, with it's 'enhanced definition/(lead-up) of (to) the word COPY, is trying to accomplish.

-dut

Protoaddict said:

If you read various reports from CanNats, you'd see where this came from - Turnabout being used on Spikes, etc.

Please note that I personally don't care one way or the other how this works out; I would just like to know one way or the other which is correct.

MegaGeese said:

Agreed Megageese, and I think there should be a list of 'hard to rule rulings', or 'commonly mis-interpreted cards' that all tournament organizers are responsible for bringing with them to events. Becuase, it is not the first, and it probably won't be the last, time that a card is ruled (and honestly) one way based on one person's interpretation of text and then ruled differently the very next day and by an equally qualified and esteemed judge.

Not at all a knock to the AGR becuase it helps a ton, but at the end of the day there will always be cards with extra or different bits of text that make people read them one way or another (in this case 'printed copy') and the more consistently we can see events ruled the better.

- dut

The problem is that everyone's brain assimilates and processes information in different ways. A language barrier can compound the issue even farther.

I will wait patiently for the judgement of Mr. Hata. Who better than a member of R&D to enlighten us on the "intent" of a card. If I made a card game with a card that said "Destroy all monsters in the battle zone" and it really meant "Your opponant must buy you a cheeseburger" .......thats my call (and the most awesome card ever made).

I'm sure Antigoth, Tag, or any other applicable mods are doing their best to nail this one down.

I almost regret coming back to this forum after taking a week off.

Here's the problem...

"Copies" can be imaginary. A Turnabout can be a copy of a Feline Spike, because we can imagine a Feline Spike superimposed over Turnabout. Everyone playing UFS will then look at Turnabout and say, "I see a Feline Spike. *WINK*" This is fine. UFS depends on that.

But PRINTED refers to ink on paper (or cardboard, in this case). No golden rule can change that.

The only way to actually make a "printed copy" is to literally stick the Turnabout card into a printer or Xerox machine or something, and print a Feline Spike image (complete with stats) onto the card, overwriting the original image. This is not imaginary. But it's also beyond the scope of the game.

Thus, when Turnabout says "exact printed copy," either A) it really means "exact copy of the card (as originally printed)" or B) it is instructing the players to take Turnabout to a printer and have it reprinted, which is (to repeat myself) beyond the scope of the game. And stupid.

Print means ink. Turnabout has no ink specifying damage and speed. So its multiple copies (which copy printed values) see no values. So its multiple copies are 0m0.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Multiple could be reworded to make Turnabout's multiples do damage. Simply change this:

2.14.2.4 " ... Each of the cards placed into your card pool counts as a copy of the Multiple attack with a blank text box and speed and damage values equal to the printed values of the original attack. ..."

to this:

2.14.2.4 " ... Each of the cards placed into your card pool counts as a copy of the Multiple attack with a blank text box and speed and damage values equal to the ORIGINAL values of the original attack. ..."

Original values = first values it had. First damage/speed values Turnabout had were the ones it got when it copied Spike. Very different from printed values (nonexistent).

So Desperation? We've been instructed that if a player is at desperation, the number printed in the upper left corner is actually the desperation number, and not the number printed there, by effects that reference printed difficulty. Desperation amply demonstrates that the printed value can be considered to be something other then what it actually is.

---

If there was a card that said " R: After your opponent's attack resolves, treat this card as though it has printed values equal to that attack. Resolve it with an enhance, block and damage step just like a normal attack."

That is not a perfect wording, but better, and it IS what Turnabout is telling you to do.

It's no more difficult to pretend a card has a stat it does not then it is to pretend that stat is printed on the card.

If I Turnabout your feline spike, and you Prince of Darkness it to 0, I should be able to Holding Ground it back up to 8 damage during the damage step.

Turnabout doesn't have a printed difficulty, but it has instructed you to play it as if it did .

the problem with comparing it to desperation is that there is a value printed next to Desperation: on the keyword row, which the ability re-directs the difficulty check to. there's still a printed value to reference. in a case where a card has Desperation:X, then it will be a printed 0. etc etc.