Hey all,

So my group has all of the core books for OW between the lot of us (minus the prebuilt adventures), but nobody wanted to take the Commissar, Stormtrooper or Psyker class because they had no advanced classes to choose from, unlike the Ogryn, Ratling, Priest, etc.

I was wondering if anybody had come up with or mused about homebrews for advanced classes within these groups?

I argued that at least the Psyker's powers provide a significant number of beneficial paths, so there's plenty of room there.

Even with the advanced specialties, Stormtroopers are awesomely powerful characters both in aptitudes and starting gear. Crazy.

Psykers as well. Capable of obscene things in the hands of a player who knows what he's doing with it.

In my personal experiences thus far, Commisars are a bit underwhelming, so I can see why they'd be met with distaste on a mechanical level but...what on earth happened to roleplay?

I'll just toss "invisible heavy weapons team" as one of the more harmless things I've seen out there from psykers. As for Comissars, they may seem underwhelming, but one player should at least invest in command skills, and it may as well be the person who can heal you by shooting faceless mooks. Or just go sergeant, but you want something to counteract fear eventually, on an entire squad level.

Even with the advanced specialties, Stormtroopers are awesomely powerful characters both in aptitudes and starting gear. Crazy.

Psykers as well. Capable of obscene things in the hands of a player who knows what he's doing with it.

In my personal experiences thus far, Commisars are a bit underwhelming, so I can see why they'd be met with distaste on a mechanical level but...what on earth happened to roleplay?

Hmmm glad the commisar aint that popular, In my opinion this game don't need a class that legalises player killing.

Of course this all depends on the player but... I mean it's no good when the psyker triggers phenomena of the warp, gets warp ghosts or something that causes a fear test, wich another trooper fails, and then the commisar executes them both:

The trooper for cowardice and the psyker for loosing control of his powers. Remember this is well within how a commisar would respond according to background and 40k lore.

As far as I can tell most people seem to play Commisars as being "Soft", and going for the inspirational archetype.

While the Commisar has the authority to execute player characters, he mechanically cannot just go ahead and do it, which leaves the Commisar rather vulnerable to "accidents" occurring.

So all in all, I find that most Commisars aren't willing to hand out executions left, right and centre despite the fact that they have the authority to do so, because it generally means the party will turn on them - often at the worst possible moment.

The Sergeant also legalises player killing then, as it is well within his rights to execute a soldier for not following some regulation or for not following orders (extra fun: the Sergeant fails a test, everyone else fails to follow orders and is therefore eligible to be shot).
So that's really just down to the group, honestly. Mechanically the commissar is only going to kill comrades, which has its own problems, but those are lesser ones, I feel.
Or the priest: If anyone is authorized to kill heretics, it's him...

Sergant is not eligable to killing anyone other than the enemy, unless it's a penal regiment or sth as such, not following orders is a crime pinishable by being courtmarshaled if the person is a higher ranking officer, or by summary execution done by commisars and noone else. Sgt killing one of his subordinates for not following orders is just a murder and for that s/he would be courtmarshaled as well, and no priest is not authorised to killing "heretics" left and right, he can find one and give the case to commisar, depending on priests/heretics renown or whatever the person accused will be shot by commisar on sight or investigated.

Not shoting cowering soldier on shight doesn't mean commisar is going soft, he just might be going smart, and trying to keep the unit alive long enough to complete mission, btw flogging is a good punishement, and not too deadly.

Sergeants are authorized to perform summary executions according to military law during war time conditions in modern militaries. Why would the setting of 40k be any different Elmer?

Giving your players weapons legalises player killing. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, really. If your players have authority issues or problems with a military command structure, don't play a military campaign with them in the first place. I doubt this is the threadstarter's issue, though.

Admittedly, the commissar and sergeant both being rather weak in terms of martial prowess is a bit of a problem; it generally bites with the fluff of regiments where sergeants aren't promoted right out of basecamp; Never mind what commissar cadets supposedly go through. I wouldn't upgrade any of the problem classes by much, though. Perhaps the option to select an additional aptitude in lieu of having a "proper" advanced specialty might be attractive to your players?

I didn't know about modern militaries, but I look at the IIUP and that says nothing about courts martial at all. Only that your superior may shoot you or have you shot. Or flogged, sometimes. The main takeaway is that PvP has to be metagamed with the group. The actual rules and fluff are completely subordinate to how you and your group want to handle things, irrespective of any in-game classes.

Sergeants are authorized to perform summary executions according to military law during war time conditions in modern militaries. Why would the setting of 40k be any different Elmer?

Sorry, my bad, it was late and I was tiered while writing that. It may be so, but I belive it differes from county to country, but yeah in a grimdark of 40k that might be quite normal, it just rubs me wrong, I always pictured sergant as kind of a strict father figure for soldiers, but that's more my personal experience speaking than solid knowledge.

And yeah courtmarshal in times of war, so like always in 40k (I think the title "Only War" might have given me a hint on that but as I stated it was late), is usualy nonexistatnt or limited to judgment (good/bad mood) of the commisar on site.

But back to the topic, more or less, PVP in P&P RPG is almost always a bad idea, it usually go from game into RL rather fast, and end up breaking a group and such. Commisar is a good "social"/"authority" character (as is a sargent) but should rather be put in a hands of a smart player who won't abuse it. If a group knows a bit of 40k lore and feel it, than summary executions might happen and there will be no bad blood over them, but they have to be justyfied, like psycher using pushed power where it realy wasn't needed, but he wanted to show how powerful he is, and thus summoning a warpbeast accidentaly. But if the players don't feel the grimdark theme of the world and just want to have fun "military" style, than yeah, better no commisar there.

Psycher is powerfull in his own right even without the advanced speciality, just play with the powers, try different ones, and match different talents from avilable books. In a Stormtrooper... I don't realy have anything to say here, haven't payed much attention to him, and there is non in my group.

I just hope that FFG will announce/publish next book soon, and that it will cover those classes, and bolt weapons.

PS: if your players don't want to play those classes, make couple of NPCs with roughly the same ammount of exp as the PC, and show them how badass they can be (not neccesarly piting them against PCs)

If you think about it what use is a Sgt if a commissar can do everything he can do? I usually make commissars morale officers (I.e. "stay in the fight buds we can do this! Or *blam* "anyone else thinking of going AWOL?") While Sgt actually gives orders.

If you think about it what use is a Sgt if a commissar can do everything he can do? I usually make commissars morale officers (I.e. "stay in the fight buds we can do this! Or *blam* "anyone else thinking of going AWOL?") While Sgt actually gives orders.

To be fair, that's kind of why Commisars exist.

What's a more probable danger is "What use is a Commisar if a Sergeant can do everything he can do, but better?"

The main advantage of the Commissar is his anti-fear ability. Other than that, I'm not sure who's better. The Sergeant's access to Sweeping Orders is certainly nice and his main tool.

Other than that, I think both are kinda shafted, aptitude-wise, no?

Sergeants are brutally good at tanking and make decent melee fighters. Toss in an advance to Brawler at a Milestone for a brief period and giggle maniacally as you dance through swarms of infantry slaughtering them.

But to put things into perspective a little, Sergeants can begin play with the True Grit talent. Kind of makes Commisar look bad in the Early Game and the flexibility of guardsmen classes make it look bad in the Late Game.

If you know how to use a Sergeant as more than solely a buff bot they are terrifying engines of destruction.

I didn't know about modern militaries, but I look at the IIUP and that says nothing about courts martial at all. Only that your superior may shoot you or have you shot. Or flogged, sometimes. The main takeaway is that PvP has to be metagamed with the group. The actual rules and fluff are completely subordinate to how you and your group want to handle things, irrespective of any in-game classes.

oh yeah that's correct. did u read that section about " wrongs to soldier, redress of" ? if you think your commanding officer is out of line he gets to whip you!

Usualy the group will know better than to kill another player, but i've heard enough tales of it happening.

Just tought of a absolute worst case cenario: Catachans (and cadians if the commsiar is not a cadian) have a tendency to friendly fire on any commisar that gets a bit execute-happy.

So worst case is: player a: executes player b. player b makes revenge character and plugs player a first chance that he gets, player a makes revenge character. rinse and repeat...

Commisar is not a military officer per se, he can be, but not as a standard (ex. Gaunt and couple of others). He is in a different chain of command (the commisariat) and is usually not attached to one squad but to a whole regiment/company/platoon.

Sergant is a commanding officer (non-commisioned) who is a leader of a specyfic squad, and has an authority to make tactical decisions.

In a combat situation it would rather be sgt. leading a squad, and commisar giving them incentive to fight harder, yes, commisar has the right to take command if he deems sgt. unable to fulfill his duty <BLAM>, but I don't see that happening very often if the sgt. is not doing something heretical/extreme (I hate the image of always trigger happy commisar waiting impatiently to kill some of his own troops, they are not psychopaths keen on murder, they are suppose to encourage and as a last resort exercise their right to execute undisciplined rabble of the IG).

Sergant is easy to put into squad (well duh!), Commisar might be a bit more tricky, but I have a three suggestions for fluffing the commisar PC into squad for good:

1. A junior/cadet comissar attached to a squad by his superior to get field experience, his status is low but nevertheless he is a commisar and can in emergency take command, but probably shouldn't if any of the other soldiers is more veteran and can lead the team. In this option, a balance betwene commisar and sgt. is almost equal, each is doing his job separatly without (mostly) getting in a way of the other one.

2. A squad is being leased to a commisariat to work as an entourage/escort of a commisar, strategic decisions are his, as he is the squads commander, but being smart he would still give a free hand in tactical decisions to a sgt. In this case the commisar is in a limelight and the value of sgt. might be a bit diminished, unless the PCs can devide the seniority of command according to the situations, it might end up with commisar being the "boss" and sgt. just another guard with buffs. (recomended for good/veteran/smart players).

3. The squad is in deep shtaco, up to their upper mollars, they FUBARed or got caught doing something dishonorable or otherwise. For some reason they were not executed on spot (or maybe their former sgt. was), but now they have to endure a commisar watching their every step, and waiting for them to slip. Not recommended for any group, as in the end it will be commisar vs the rest, and if the commisar ends up being trigger happy...

From a RAW stand of view, it's hard to say since we do not have any advances specs for commisar, if GM allows it, he might be allowed to take one of the guards advanced specs as a "special training", just remember that in the end no matter what his training is he is a commisar first.

From a RAW stand of view, it's hard to say since we do not have any advances specs for commisar, if GM allows it, he might be allowed to take one of the guards advanced specs as a "special training", just remember that in the end no matter what his training is he is a commisar first.

Don't forget commisars get raised/trained by the shola progenium, ie the same ones who raise/train the stormtroopers, so maybe give him storm trooper advances?

Don't forget commisars get raised/trained by the shola progenium, ie the same ones who raise/train the stormtroopers, so maybe give him storm trooper advances?

Yeah they do but I was thinking that would be a bit over the top, let them take a weapon specialist or sgt. depending on the fluff about that particular commisar, if he's leading the team let him go commander route, if he tends to get his hands dirty fighting along the soldiers (very good way to show them that even if you shoot some of them, it;s a job you have to do but in the end you are one of them) have him be trained, by soldiers around him and him being in field, in their tactics so going the weapon specialist, or maybe he has a tendency toward heavy weapons? let him take a heavy gunner specialty at the milestone (imagine all those summary executions with thread feather ) just point out that it's all GM discretion and should be backed up by story/fluff.

PS: Also double backing a bit a passage from wikipedia (I know it's not the best and always right source of information but still I usually belive it) about summary executions:

Finally, it is theoretically legal for a military to punish its own soldiers with summary executions in emergency situations that cannot wait for trial by military tribunal, such as desertion in the face of the enemy

have him be trained, by soldiers around him and him being in field, in their tactics so going the weapon specialist, or maybe he has a tendency toward heavy weapons? let him take a heavy gunner specialty at the milestone (imagine all those summary executions with thread feather ) just point out that it's all GM discretion and should be backed up by story/fluff.

Ho boy, commisar with a heavy stubber/heavy bolter, going back to Stalin's methods of "motivating" the troops!

I always saw them as frontline leaders either swinging their chainswords in the front rank, or standing in the second rank to make sure nobody turns and runs. Of course there are exceptions (like Ciaphas cain) how about some Brawler specialities?

Commissars (along with Ogryn) are probably also some of the best chances the IG has to counteract dangerous close combat foes once they contact enemy lines - a trained Commissar duelist with a power weapon, stands a chance of taking down some genestealers, nobz, or big mutants. In that sense that's one of the ways in which a Commissar has the responsibility to protect the troops - better that the Commissar jumps on the metaphorical hand grenade of a charging Chaos Champion than the Colonel get killed and the regiment's command structure get destabilized.