While I don't actually have a problem with the majority of the lightsaber forms being incorporated into the various careers, I think that Shii Cho would be better served as a universal specialization. The lore suggests that Shii Cho is more of an introductory form that provides the basics that the other lightsaber forms build upon. It could function somewhat like the recruit tree in AoR, providing access to basic aspects of lightsaber combat. It could easily be replaced by Djem So, a form better suited to the overall character of the class, especially given the other specializations within career.

From Wookipedia:

"As the most simplistic form, Shii-Cho was the first form taught to initiates within the Jedi Order. Form I training provided the basic knowledge of the sword-fighting principles and blast-deflection skill that was required for practice of all the other forms. ^[15]

In order to teach students to draw upon the Force rather than rely on their senses, early level Shii-Cho blast-deflect training was conducted with a blindfold, forcing the initiate to rely upon his instincts. ^[17] Later training was conducted through the use of sequences and velocities , the continuous repetition making the moves instinctive reflexes. These training regimens were carried over to all following lightsaber combat forms, which used similar methods. ^{[15] [18] "}

makes sense, but what would take its place?

Djem So.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So

As a universal spec, no one could start in it, so by default, then all characters that wanted to start in a lightsaber spec would be in a more "advanced" form.

Not an issue, but also a consequence of what you suggest.

As a universal spec, no one could start in it, so by default, then all characters that wanted to start in a lightsaber spec would be in a more "advanced" form.

This. This is the rub. Also, Djem So already has a place in the Shien Expert spec (yes, it's not called that, but it's obviously there).

I've argued previously that Shii-Cho should just be dropped from the Warrior career and replaced with Juyo for obvious reasons. Maybe the Dev's have some other hidden plans for Form VII, though. /shrug

Juyo/Vaapad would be the obvious choice, but I do admit I see some logic in putting Shi-Cho's multiple opponent fighting techniques within the Warrior Career

Personally i would like to see Juyo as a signature ability.

Personally i would like to see Juyo as a signature ability.

For what career though? I understand restricting Juyo for narrative reasons (much like it was restricted in the EU), but to only make it available to 1 career is upsetting.

Signature Abilities for Force and Destiny are going to be tricky. I do not envy the Developers who will be designing these abilities.

Personally i would like to see Juyo as a signature ability.

For what career though? I understand restricting Juyo for narrative reasons (much like it was restricted in the EU), but to only make it available to 1 career is upsetting.

Signature Abilities for Force and Destiny are going to be tricky. I do not envy the Developers who will be designing these abilities.

Yeah too true, that's a tough one. I would say warrior because of Juyo's offensive nature.

Personally i would like to see Juyo as a signature ability.

For what career though?

Yes, there doesn't seem to be an elegant solution for including Form VII with the character design elements we've seen so far. Making it a Universal spec means it costs less XP to pick up than any other saber form -- which makes no sense. As a Signature Ability, it's cheesy and inappropriate -- "Juyo kills everything LOL!"? No, just no.

While Shii-Cho is considered the "basis for all lightsaber training," that doesn't mean that every PC is going to be an expert at Shii-Cho, which is what the Shii-Cho Knight reflects.

If anything, Shii-Cho training as "basic knowledge of sword-fighting" is covered by simply having ranks in the Lightsaber skill.

Plus as thebearisdriving mentioned, by making Shii-Cho Knight a universal spec, that prevents a PC from starting with that spec, which goes against what the OP was aiming for in their suggestion.

Personally i would like to see Juyo as a signature ability.

For what career though?

Yes, there doesn't seem to be an elegant solution for including Form VII with the character design elements we've seen so far. Making it a Universal spec means it costs less XP to pick up than any other saber form -- which makes no sense. As a Signature Ability, it's cheesy and inappropriate -- "Juyo kills everything LOL!"? No, just no.

Hm, I thought that's what Juyo did. I mean, what else do you do with a lightsaber...well aside from a light show.

Personally, I'd rather that Juyo pretty much not show up at all.

In the lore, by the time of the Clone Wars, it's typically considered to be an "incomplete" Form, to the point that outside of the Jedi Order it's not very well known. Mace Windu was semi-famous for having taken what existed for Form VII and "completed" it by devising his personal Vaapad style, which was pretty much lost when he died as the two people he did teach wound up going dark side, and then either died or went crazy.

If anything, a Juyo/Form VII expert would more likely be a blend of the various LS Form specs, combining Shii-Cho Knight, Soresu Defender, Shien Expert, and Ataru Striker to become an utter monster when using a lightsaber. And it fits with Juyo being an incredibly difficult Form to "master."

Personally, I'd rather that Juyo pretty much not show up at all.

Agreed. If they omit it entirely, I'm happy with having Shii-Cho attached to a career.

Is there a limitation that prevents a character from starting with a universal specialization?

Yes, by RAW you have to choose a career and a specilizationin that career, then you can get the universal specialization, but you can't choose career+universal specialization.

Is there a limitation that prevents a character from starting with a universal specialization?

Yep, as Lareg said. You only get to pick a career specialization as your free starting specialization, and universal specs are delibrately called out as not being career specs.

So if a PC wants to have a universal spec when the game begins, they need to pay for it out of their starting XP budget.

IF we replace Shii-Cho with say Djem Do as the and instead say that it's a universal that you can start with as your free specialisation regardless of your career, you could have 1 or 2 or even 3 career agnostic starting specialisations in the book allowing the players more freedom. Shii-Cho is definitely a good candidate for this maybe?

IF we replace Shii-Cho with say Djem Do as the and instead say that it's a universal that you can start with as your free specialisation regardless of your career, you could have 1 or 2 or even 3 career agnostic starting specialisations in the book allowing the players more freedom. Shii-Cho is definitely a good candidate for this maybe?

Yeah, but then you get into a thorny situation of having to justify why a universal spec like AoR's Recruit can't follow the same guidelines. After all, the PCs are all members of the Rebel Alliance, so it's not unreasonable that they've been put through boot camp of some sort and thus can take Recruit instead of whatever their Career normally offers. Same can then be said of Force Emergent and Force Exile, as to "why can't I use those as my starting spec instead?"

Shii-Cho still takes dedicated study to master, and as I noted above, being versed in the fundamentals of Shii-Cho is already covered by simply having ranks in the Lightsaber skill. Thus, it makes sense to have Shii-Cho Knight be attached to a career than treated as a Universal and then adding rules loopholes to the allow a PC to start with it.

Is there a limitation that prevents a character from starting with a universal specialization?

Yep, as Lareg said. You only get to pick a career specialization as your free starting specialization, and universal specs are delibrately called out as not being career specs.

So if a PC wants to have a universal spec when the game begins, they need to pay for it out of their starting XP budget.

Alright, that was my understanding of the rules. I don't have a problem with this, actually. While it seems that you disagree, I like the idea of a general lightsaber proficiency specialization open to all force sensitives and not tied to a specific career. At least in the games that I run, entering another career is a fairly momentous step. A universal specialization seems more accessible, and accentuates another class rather than overwhelming it.

Also, as you noted above, ranks in the lightsaber skill would cover basic attacks, given that trained defense is largely a function of talents I don't think that basic lightsaber proficiency would cover the same ground without requiring someone to buy into another career.

I suppose the whole thing is a matter of preference.

All that said, I do still think that Djem So or Juyo would be a better fit then Shii Cho for a career with the Agressor Specialization in it.

I think a form that would work well as a universal spec could be trakata. I would also fit nicely in with the shadow career, but as a universal spec, it would be ok.

Also remember that Warrior has the Starfighter Ace specialization attached to it, which is about as diametrically opposed to Aggressor as you can get in terms of the types of combat they focus on.

Plus, you probably shouldn't get quiet so hung up on the "Shii-Cho" or "Knight" parts of the specialization's names. As written, all but two of the spec's talents can be used in conjunction with a Melee weapon, and Melee is offered as a bonus career skill.

If anything, Shii-Cho Knight makes a nice counterpoint to Aggressor, offering an approach to melee combat that isn't about fear/intimidation but rather a more practiced approach to fighting, favoring defense over offense and domination.

They synergize well too, as fearsome works reasonably well with Multiple opponents, and terrify grants a good ranged action to supplement the approach for a melee focused spec, not to mention offering that single reflect rank.