Probably not a good option but if I were to put leebo on a b-wing with advanced sensors and boost before I reveal my dial what happens? Do I disregard the maneuver I picked and move one white straight, or do I execute my maneuver that has already been chosen and that ion resolves next turn?

Based on the ruling with advanced sensors and decloaking (where you cannot use AS to cloak and then spend the token to decloak immediately) I would say you would get the ion token then do your planned move as normal (you would do the ion move next turn).

I agree. Since you already planned a maneuver in the planning phase you don't execute the whitw maneuver and remove the ion token. This means you retain the ion token and is affected by it on the next turn, just like if you had used Leebo as a normal action.

(you would do the ion move next turn).

I would agree. With a ion token you don't set your dial, but seeing how you already set your dial and are 'interrupting' the process to preform an action, that you'd process the ion token the next turn.

I'm not 100% sure of that. The Ion rules aren't presented as a single big process, and don't say each depends on the other - they say you're subject to special rules in certain phases. The Activation Phase rules don't actually depend on the dial being placed or not, they just tell you what to do in that phase.

For reference:

I'm not 100% sure of that.

I'm not 100% sure either. But if you can't use a cloak token you gain using AdvSen, then you shouldn't IMO consider the Ion token to be in play either.

I mean why would the Cloak Token be treated differently rules wise then a Ion token? I think my above post wasn't completely thought out, because you're right the 1 straight is separate from setting the dial.

I'm not 100% sure either. But if you can't use a cloak token you gain using AdvSen, then you shouldn't IMO consider the Ion token to be in play either.

I mean why would the Cloak Token be treated differently rules wise then a Ion token? I think my above post wasn't completely thought out, because you're right the 1 straight is separate from setting the dial.

I think you answer your own question The cloak token initiates a process, so if you don't have it at the trigger point (revealing your dial) you can't initiate the process, and by the time you do have the token it's too late. But the ion rules are different. The token doesn't initiate a process, it changes how you perform certain parts of the rules. It's more like stress, or if we want to stay with the cloak analogy it's how the cloak affects agility, rather than the decloak operation.

I think the quick response looked at ion resolution as a process that starts in the planning phase and runs through the Activation phase. But that's not how the rules are worded, and I think it CAN'T work like that, because there's other stuff that happens in between, so the ion resolution isn't a single effect. Again, more like rules that are activated at different times based on the state of being ionized.

I think the quick response looked at ion resolution as a process that starts in the planning phase and runs through the Activation phase.

You're right I was thinking of it that way. That you don't set a dial and the rest sort of flows along naturally as a result of that. But yes Ion's can at least be seen as a series of individual steps, rather then a process.

If Ion then Do this.

Then do this.

Then do this.

Each step being independent of the other.

The cloak token initiates a process, so if you don't have it at the trigger point (revealing your dial) you can't initiate the process, and by the time you do have the token it's too late.

I'll be honest I don't get the ruling regarding AdvSen and Cloaking and Decloaking. Maybe I missed the reasoning behind it on FFG's part, but it struck me as a "We're ruling this way because that's how we want it to work." and not based on the way the rules actually work.

AdvSen happens before you reveal your dial, and lets you preform an action. If you use that action to gain a cloak token, you then have that token before you reveal your dial... But I don't want to really derail this thread with another discussion of something that has been settled.

But I'm still not sure I see why an Ion token is in effect before you reveal your dial if the cloaking token isn't. In both cases you have a token which lets you/forces you to account for that effect, be it moving 1 straight or being allowed to decloak. I don't see why Cloak/Decloak is a process which makes it inherently different, other then one is mandatory and the other is optional.

I'll be honest I don't get the ruling regarding AdvSen and Cloaking and Decloaking. Maybe I missed the reasoning behind it on FFG's part, but it struck me as a "We're ruling this way because that's how we want it to work." and not based on the way the rules actually work.

But I'm still not sure I see why an Ion token is in effect before you reveal your dial if the cloaking token isn't. In both cases you have a token which lets you/forces you to account for that effect, be it moving 1 straight or being allowed to decloak. I don't see why Cloak/Decloak is a process which makes it inherently different, other then one is mandatory and the other is optional.

Don't get me wrong, I don't get the AdvS/Cloak ruling either - I'm just working under what the common assumption for the reason is.

The difference between the two is that the cloak token triggers before you actually reveal your dial, while the ion token changes what you do when you execute your maneuver later. Reveal Dial is Step 1, Execute Maneuver is Step 3, and the execute is what the ion affects.

Whatever the actual reasoning behind the AdvS/Cloak ruling, it comes into play because those two things are occurring at the same time. The ion isn't checked until two steps later, well after Leebo has resolved.

Don't get me wrong, I don't get the AdvS/Cloak ruling either...

Ok That makes me feel a bit better. I mean I expected the cloak-decloak-cloak thing to not work, and listed reasons why. But the ruling they came up really seamed to come out of left field.

The ion isn't checked until two steps later, well after Leebo has resolved.

I can accept that, revealing the dial and executing the maneuver being two distinct steps, means the Ion rules could overrule the maneuver listed on the dial. At the very least I can see how this could co-exist with the AdvSen/Cloaking ruling.

I'm not 100% sure of that. The Ion rules aren't presented as a single big process, and don't say each depends on the other - they say you're subject to special rules in certain phases. The Activation Phase rules don't actually depend on the dial being placed or not, they just tell you what to do in that phase.

For reference:

Yes I can see your reasoning. I have no doubt that when the Ion reference card was written the rules for the Activation Phase was based on the assumption that you had not set a dial in the Planning phase.

But I still think you just keep the Ion token for next round. Why? Because if Leebo is activated with Advanced Sensors, you are triggering just before revealing your dial. So what happend if you then get the ion token? Do you reveal the dial or not? What if I had a second card triggering immediately before revealing the dial?

If you don't reveal the dial, then you couldn't use Leebo, so you wouldn't get the Ion token, so you could trigger AS and use Leebo. And then the universe vanished in a puff of logic. It basically creates an eternal loop.

So much like the Cloak token not being usable if you Cloak with AS, I think the Ion token is only taking effect on the following turn. Which shouldn't be a problem. Large ships can log a single Ion token around for multiple turns before it triggers on the second token. So why not just keep the game flow simple and resolve the ships maneuver, complete the round, and act just like if you had used Leebo during the Perform Action step?

But I still think you just keep the Ion token for next round. Why? Because if Leebo is activated with Advanced Sensors, you are triggering just before revealing your dial. So what happend if you then get the ion token? Do you reveal the dial or not? What if I had a second card triggering immediately before revealing the dial?

If you don't reveal the dial, then you couldn't use Leebo, so you wouldn't get the Ion token, so you could trigger AS and use Leebo. And then the universe vanished in a puff of logic. It basically creates an eternal loop.

Not really. The ion rules override what you do during the Execute a Maneuver step. You'd still reveal your dial as normal, it just gets ignored in favor of the 1 ahead. No paradox or loop required.

The problem I can see is everyone is applyng the Ion rules instantly. When a ship is ionised, it's usually an effect that's carried over from the previous round. You put the token on, and that defines what you do in the following round. The way I see it, the ion effect from using Leebo with AdvS as an effect that is going to impact the following round.

Either way, I have to agree with the OPs original statement: "probably not a good option".

The problem I can see is everyone is applyng the Ion rules instantly.

There's no reason to say that you shouldn't. The reference card lays out what you do in each phase if you find yourself with a token during that phase. None of them are necessarily dependent upon the last. The Activation Phase entry just tell you to perform a white straight-1, then remove the token. If you get it in time (ie. before performing your maneuver) I can't see a reason why you wouldn't do as the token commands.

You put the token on, and that defines what you do in the following round.

It doesn't, though. The state of the token defined what you do when you hit those points. Just because there's something that it will affect next round doesn't mean it doesn't affect this round. Again, I look at it similar to stress. If I use Push the Limit, I gain a stress. That won't normally affect anything until next round - but if it's Turr, it certainly affects him later this round.

It typically has worked that way in the past, because the timing on ways to get ion tokens were limited. But there's nothing in the rules that actually says it's only the next round.