Remember I am new here, but it seems to me the single use secondary weapons are a waste of build points.

I say this because they are dependent on a roll of the dice, at up to 5 build points for something that can just miss seems like a waste, sure it could be 4 hits but it could also be zero hits, I would rather use the slot for something that can be fired more than once, like the Ion turret, or a heavy laser cannon, ect. or spend the points on another cheap ship that can fire more that once and add another firing arc.

You're not wrong.

There are ways to make them work, but in general they're underwhelming and don't tend to show up in anything but very dedicated builds.

Munitions Failsafe helps.

The question is...is a 5/6-point upgrade "a waste" if it can kill a 30-point ship in a single shot? I think most would agree that's a good exchange.

So the trick is finding a way to get that kind of value out of them - so you definitely do have to build for them, if you plan to use them. (IE., just slapping proton torpedoes on every fighter that can carry them?...not a good idea!)

By and large, your primary attack is going to be the best value attack to make from your fighter. But...isn't that what we all saw in the movies?

No worries they're not easy to use. There quite a few games I don't use my Torpedo and Missile cards effectively or at all. One's not bad to have on a ship at least an Assault Missile is useful to separate a squad of enemies. If you have the points to put one on it's not a bad deal but more usually requires a special build.

There's also that you need to Target Lock or Focus to get a hit with one which can be even harder as low pilot skill ships can have their intended target get within a safe zone that you can't use them on. Higher point ships not as much as you move last and shoot first.

It depends. For me, I love Assault Missiles loaded onto high-agility ships like A-wings, because they are DEVASTATING if you use them right. One game I loaded two Prototype Pilots with AMs and sent them to the outside edge of the map, then while my opponent was busy dogfighting with me in the middle I sent them cruising in while breaking up my fighters in the middle, then I unloaded the missiles into the conglomeration. Both of them hit, and it dealt two damage to each ship in the cluster, which was enough to kill two TIE Fighters and severely damage his shuttle, who was the primary target (the attack dice you roll here are applied to the defender, and he suffered one or two hits from each missile).

It's all about application. Each missile or torpedo can be used effectively if you practice with them often enough and figure out when and when not to fire them.

And of course, not all missiles would be useful in all situations. Assault Missile would be poor to use against a two-ship element, Proton Torpedo would be bad to use against a highly shielded ship, etc. And the biggest downside is you have to be VERY familiar with them to know how to use them, which means going up against opponents many, many times and not succeeding most of the time.

But... you can get use out of missiles and torpedoes. Its not the most effective use of points, but they can be fun and deadly in the right hands.

I'm convinced that the only thing holding most missiles and torpedoes back is that you need to spend your Target Lock in order to fire them. That one little clause makes it nigh-on impossible to get modified shots off with them without jumping through so many hoops and spending so many points that you start to wonder why you don't just take another ship instead. Get rid of it and most, if not all ordnance becomes a perfectly reasonable way to spend your points.

It depends. For me, I love Assault Missiles loaded onto high-agility ships like A-wings, because they are DEVASTATING if you use them right. One game I loaded two Prototype Pilots with AMs and sent them to the outside edge of the map, then while my opponent was busy dogfighting with me in the middle I sent them cruising in while breaking up my fighters in the middle, then I unloaded the missiles into the conglomeration. Both of them hit, and it dealt two damage to each ship in the cluster, which was enough to kill two TIE Fighters and severely damage his shuttle, who was the primary target (the attack dice you roll here are applied to the defender, and he suffered one or two hits from each missile).

It's all about application. Each missile or torpedo can be used effectively if you practice with them often enough and figure out when and when not to fire them.

And of course, not all missiles would be useful in all situations. Assault Missile would be poor to use against a two-ship element, Proton Torpedo would be bad to use against a highly shielded ship, etc. And the biggest downside is you have to be VERY familiar with them to know how to use them, which means going up against opponents many, many times and not succeeding most of the time.

But... you can get use out of missiles and torpedoes. Its not the most effective use of points, but they can be fun and deadly in the right hands.

They tend to not be cost effective and also tend to be disappointing without Captain Jonus.

The spending of the Target Lock REALLY hampers most torps and missiles. House ruling it that you can use that Target Lock is probably fine for all Wave 3 stuff (doesn't include rebel aces).

As a torpedo user, I'd actually recommend saving the torpedos for a decent shot later. Sometimes your ship will go down with it... and, you know, that's okay. Life happens.

If you really want to play good lists though, avoid the missiles unless you know exactly that they are needed for a SPECIFIC purpose:

Clusters vs a powerful low agility target. Han.

Flechette Torps (maybe add munitions failsafe for multi-stress). Give stress to stuff. Most likely interceptors and Phantoms.

Assault Missiles (Lt. Blount or Munitions failsafe) for area damage.

Ion Pulse Missiles for anti-Huge ships.

Try to avoid the rest of them.

You know, a simple way to fix the munitions would be to simply not discard the card on use. They're already quite bad value for points.

There are 2 missiles that do not spend target locks.

Missiles and Torpedoes do have advantages over primary weapons. For one they tend to roll more attack dice. The lowest is 3 but most roll 4 and a couple can roll 5. Defending ship doesn't get extra dice at range 3 so even using flechete torpedoes have a good chance of hitting plus you get the effect. Unless the ordinance have a special effect those that do burn TL come with their own dice modification ability.

Hi newb, although you can get missiles to work it is usually more trouble than its worth which is why not many people use them I personally haven't used missiles in the last six months and kill things just fine.

One of the reasons I'm getting rebel aces is proton rockets which look like a fun option.

Unless your looking to stress someone with flechete missiles and MY spend those points on EPTs instead.

Ok then will this change?

If ordinace is not making it on the lists FFG must be aware right?

How long has it been like this, have they sucked from the start?

This makes the tie bomber seem almost useless then.

The Z-95 was an effort to make missiles more useful, and I find it worked pretty well. When you have 20 or so points left, instead of tossing in another generic X or B you can go for a Headhunter or two and arm them with whatever missiles best cover your weakness. There have been some moderately successful Bomber lists in ages past, and I still hear them being used in casual play. When not facing swarms/Phantoms they can do quite well.

Most missiles and torpedoes were pretty bad early on, FFG overestimated how useful they were. Assault Missiles and Cluster Missiles stand out as the best options because you can wreck swarms or ships that have low agility with them, most other options are still not optimal. Proximity Mines are also a fun area denial trick regardless of what tournaments may say.

It all depends on how you use them. I find you have to have a target lock and focus to use them well. But it is fun K-turning and firing protons at targets. Since you still get 4 dice, granted you cannot re-roll them, but 4 dice is 4 dice.

I think they need to say that Secondary weapons Missles and Torps, always subtract 1 agility from the enemy at range 2-3. That would fix them quickly and easily.

Remember I am new here, but it seems to me the single use secondary weapons are a waste of build points.

I say this because they are dependent on a roll of the dice, at up to 5 build points for something that can just miss seems like a waste, sure it could be 4 hits but it could also be zero hits, I would rather use the slot for something that can be fired more than once, like the Ion turret, or a heavy laser cannon, ect. or spend the points on another cheap ship that can fire more that once and add another firing arc.

You, sir, are a very smart man. Missiles and Torps are not very good most of the time. If you have Lieutenant Blount or Munitions Failsafe or something they'll work. But just plain old torps on a rookie x? Waste of points.

I almost think the Rebs have it easier with ordnance. I can run missiles on a low PS ship, and focus for their action, then use several different ships to grant a TL later. This is drastically more efficient use of things.

Blount is also a nice touch. Having auto-hit on some AMs or Ion Missiles is a nice touch.

On the Imp side, Jonus is almost a must if you're going heavy ordnance. And don't sell bombers short. They're tough as hell, have a good dial, and a 2 pt Seismic can wreck house.

Yeah I want to chime in and say their major weakness is not that they are discarded, but that they just don't do enough for what their cost is and the fact that you need to get a target lock to use them.

Most missiles are most effective at Range 3. Outside of a number of special abilities, in order to use them you need to have a higher pilot skill than your opponent in order to get a TL on them at range 3. Then in order to maximize you need an additional action for a focus to stack with the TL (or a special ability). So missiles cost points, the pilot skill to get them costs points and an ability to get a second action costs points. Thats a lotta points, especially compared to the 7 ot HLC, sure its more expensive and doesn't generate many crits, but since you do not have to use a specific action on a specific target to get it to work and pilot skill is not a requirement, it ends up being cheaper. A card should be worth its points without needing a bunch of more points to be effective.

I think that changing TL so it can be acquired beyond range 3 would go a long way to making missiles cost efficient. It would create other issues in the game so I do not think it is an ideal solution. Other than that, making them cheaper will work. Making them not need to be discarded would help, but I think the other underlying issues may remain.

Mt wife feels the same way. First game she played an ordnance card and i told her she had to discard it (she'd not read it properly) she said 'if i'd have known it was a one shot thing i'd never have taken it for that many points'

and she's got a point, personally i like how they are a 'gamble' munitions failsafe as said makes it less of a 'do or die'

I don't gamble, that's why i take the HLC on a defender.

I've found that firing two ordenance is the best thing. I also prefer Concussion Missiles to ensure I get at least one hit in there. I would take a cheap bomber with Concussion and Vader w/ Swarm Tactics and the same. First wave sees the Bomber and then Vader w/ focus firing at the same target. I usually cripple or destroy a ship in the first pass. That's pretty powerful if used right....and the dice don't totally screw you over. Munitions Failsafe is great, though.

There's also a card that says if they don't hit, you don't expend the missile/torpedo/etc. I forget the name, but it came with the Z-95.

I took an ordnance heavy list to Gen Con Nationals - 2 concussion missiles and 1 cluster. It was fairly effective against everything but Whisper. With only 3 ships in my list and none of them above PS 7, it was pretty much impossible to get whisper in arc and in range of the missiles - I'd say against a good player its probably IS impossible. The only time I even may have had a shot was in my 3rd game (I believe) when whisper deliberately barrel rolled in front of my Z95 w/ Cluster at range 1. Since she had a higher PS and 5 attack dice, however, she just destroyed the Z95 before it could shoot.

Remember I am new here, but it seems to me the single use secondary weapons are a waste of build points.

I say this because they are dependent on a roll of the dice, at up to 5 build points for something that can just miss seems like a waste, sure it could be 4 hits but it could also be zero hits, I would rather use the slot for something that can be fired more than once, like the Ion turret, or a heavy laser cannon, ect. or spend the points on another cheap ship that can fire more that once and add another firing arc.

Yup, I'll agree with all of this. Even looking at the average damage numbers of Missiles / torpedoes over primary attacks, and converting that to a equivalent "value" you are hard pressed to find them cost effective. Once you factor in the "risk factor" of completely missing, it is even worse.

There's also a card that says if they don't hit, you don't expend the missile/torpedo/etc. I forget the name, but it came with the Z-95.

Munitions failsafe. its a 1 pt card

The question is...is a 5/6-point upgrade "a waste" if it can kill a 30-point ship in a single shot? I think most would agree that's a good exchange.

Except it isn't a 5-6pt upgrade killing a 30pt ship, it is a 5-6pt upgrade on a ship that costs also. And that is for a single shot that may or may not work. And even if it does, great you made that exchange. Chances are you could have made that exchange without paying for the upgrade though as well.