Hello all,

my group and I were exploring the way Two-Weapon fighting works and, given that it really seems overpowered sometimes (we had a very hard encounter with a force user inquisitor using 2x lightsabers, killing one person each round... omg), the rules say you can only use the style with Ranged Light or Melee weapons.

Given that the rule doesn't say anything about Brawl-type weapons, so that it "should be" interpreted like it's not possible to use it with knuckles or bare-hands etc, it still seems weird that you can use 2x knives but you can't punch with both hands (and, in this regard, there are many forum threads where some groups allow the use of two-weapon fighting with brawl).

Now, the very point of this discussion is the following:

PRESSURE POINT

the talent is used as a brawl check so that our droid-doctor wants to know if it is possible that, given the two-weapon fighting style applied also to brawl, you can also use pressure point in this way, upgrading by 1 dice the difficulty of the brawl check but, in case of success, dealing 2 times the strain damage pressure point is designed for.

In my opinion it seems like stretching the rules too much and allowing a single - already very powerful - talent to be too strong, but I would like to know your opinions too.

PS: For the same reasons, i.e. not to push some skills too much as they are already very strong, we house ruled that Deadly Accuracy is not automatic but it is used just like Targeted Blow or Anatomy Lessons, that is, if you want to add the damage, you need to flip a destiny point. It seems more in line with the rest of the talents.

Thanks in advance.

AFB, but if I recall Pressure Point says specifically that it only applies to one attack per round. I'd count two weapon fighting as two attacks,

Also bear in mind that when you use two weapon fighting, you INCREASE the difficulty by one. You said upgrade. Those are two very different things. Increasing adds a purple, whereas upgrading turns a purple into a red.

Yeah I used the wrong word (upgrade instead of increase) but I also said "upgrading BY 1 dice", intending that you add 1 purple to the check. Anyway thanks for the point.

By the way, Pressure Point description says exactly: "When making a Brawl check against a living opponent..." so it doesn't really specify that's just 1 attack per round. This led to the question of the thread.

Question asked by Jegergryte (Paraphrased):

Answered by Sam Stewart:

1) You can use Brawl weapons with two-weapon fighting.

2) Brawl is intentionally open to interpretation, but yes you can use it with the two-weapon fighting rules as a kind of "flurry of blows". Sam does point out the increased chance of failure doing this however.

3) Therefore you can also use two-weapon fighting for a knife and fist/foot attack.

Damage talents usually applies only to one hit - that is to say that if you go two-weapon fighting or auto-fire, it is only one of the hits that deals added damage, usually the first hit.

I'd say the same about brawl and pressure points, brawl attacks can - if I recall correctly - cause wound or strain damage as per the attackers choice. So if attacking two-weapon brawling, I'd add the pressure point bonus only to the initial hit, or to the second hit for style, narration and coolness.

Given that the rule doesn't say anything about Brawl-type weapons, so that it "should be" interpreted like it's not possible to use it with knuckles or bare-hands etc, it still seems weird that you can use 2x knives but you can't punch with both hands (and, in this regard, there are many forum threads where some groups allow the use of two-weapon fighting with brawl).

Actually it does specifically say brawl:

p210: "Generally, these weapons are Ranged (Light) weapons - generally pistols and grenades - and one-handed melee or brawl weapons."

Fists and claws and the like are "brawl weapons"... so you can double-punch a Nexu while he double-claws you back...

There's nothing within the rules that suggests Pressure Point can't be used with two-weapon fighting, so long as you're brawling with both hands and no brawl weapons, as the talent explicitly states "these checks cannot be made with any weapons" (p. 141, EotE).

So it basically looks like this: You make a brawl check. That check's difficulty is at Average [PP]. You increase the difficulty for two-weapon fighting, so it's now Hard [PPP]. You attack using Brawn/Brawl. If you succeed and get two advantages or a triumph, those can be spent to activate the second hit. Since both hits are Brawl, you can activate Pressure Point for both, adding Intellect to any successful brawl attacks... but converting all damage to Strain.

Yes, it's potentially VERY powerful.

There's nothing within the rules that suggests Pressure Point can't be used with two-weapon fighting, so long as you're brawling with both hands and no brawl weapons, as the talent explicitly states "these checks cannot be made with any weapons" (p. 141, EotE).

So it basically looks like this: You make a brawl check. That check's difficulty is at Average [PP]. You increase the difficulty for two-weapon fighting, so it's now Hard [PPP]. You attack using Brawn/Brawl. If you succeed and get two advantages or a triumph, those can be spent to activate the second hit. Since both hits are Brawl, you can activate Pressure Point for both, adding Intellect to any successful brawl attacks... but converting all damage to Strain.

Yes, it's potentially VERY powerful.

That is exactly my point, it seems potencially very powerful BUT my post was not intended to discuss about how powerful it could really be but about rules coverage of this event.

Honestly talking, Pressure Point is like a "Kenshiro" punch or a Mr Spock move where, of course, the enemy's body does not explode BUT it should be a very precise move and, given that, it feels not right for anyone to activate it twice, hitting, with both hands, two different point on the enemy's body while brawling with him.

Anyway I'd like to know if, for the other groups out there, it could be used twice as for two-weapon fighting OR it should be limited to one hit, even if you can two-weapon brawl.

Ah, and by the way, there is just one more question I would like to ask. What happens when a charachter wants to use Pressure Point against an opponent with a fully sealed suit of armor ? I'm thinking about a Protector I Combat Armor or a Powered Suit (both from Dangerous Covenant Sourcebook but there are lotsa more like the Mandalorian Armor of Boba Fett) ?

Is it really resonable that a naked finger can bypass the protection offered from the sealed suit and reach the nerves ?

Ah, and by the way, there is just one more question I would like to ask. What happens when a charachter wants to use Pressure Point against an opponent with a fully sealed suit of armor ? I'm thinking about a Protector I Combat Armor or a Powered Suit (both from Dangerous Covenant Sourcebook but there are lotsa more like the Mandalorian Armor of Boba Fett) ?

Is it really resonable that a naked finger can bypass the protection offered from the sealed suit and reach the nerves ?

Sealed doesn't mean solid. It means that gasses don't get in/out, so you're protected from airborne poisons or from different atmospheres. The armor still has to flex to allow the wearer to move (Unless you're in Zero-g Stormtrooper armor which is more like a small vehicle). This is generally done with plates over another suit. So, yes, it does seem reasonable that you could still hit pressure points without actually breaking through the armor. Areas like the crotch near the inner thigh, or up under the armpit tend to be the hardest to actually armor with a solid cover.

In medieval fights, hitting those places with a knife was the best way to kill someone if full plate.

Ah, and by the way, there is just one more question I would like to ask. What happens when a charachter wants to use Pressure Point against an opponent with a fully sealed suit of armor ? I'm thinking about a Protector I Combat Armor or a Powered Suit (both from Dangerous Covenant Sourcebook but there are lotsa more like the Mandalorian Armor of Boba Fett) ?

Is it really resonable that a naked finger can bypass the protection offered from the sealed suit and reach the nerves ?

Well, Boba Fett looks like he's wearing cargo pants (fabric that resists blasters but blunt force would still go through) so one good hit to the happy sack and he'll go down like anyone else.

As for full combat armor. There usually is soft spots in the joints, armpits, crotch, ect. So, personally I'd allow Pressure Point to work as written. If I wanted to make it a bit harder I'd either add Setback Dice to the attack, Flip a destiny point to upgrade (Dispair to hurt the hand), or treat it like cortosis and not allow the soak to go through.

As for full combat armor. There usually is soft spots in the joints, armpits, crotch, ect. So, personally I'd allow Pressure Point to work as written. If I wanted to make it a bit harder I'd either add Setback Dice to the attack, Flip a destiny point to upgrade (Dispair to hurt the hand), or treat it like cortosis and not allow the soak to go through.

Because of the sheer power of Pressure Point, I might be tempted to add one setback die per point of soak provided by armor.

In the game I attend we have found that if we (the players) take powerful combat abilities it significantly decreases the fun for our GM. We recently restarted as our party was at about 300 xp and very over powered. Something I do well is find exploitable weaknesses in a system. If I wanted to exploit this particular skill I would do it this way:

Race: Transdosian with 5 brawn

Career: Hired gun-Murauder

In seven or eight sessions I would have enough xp to purchase 1 frenzied attach, 2 feral strength, Dr tree, and pressure points.

Four more sessions (investing in medicine) and you can would be able to reliably take down a Rancor each round. This is without hitting twice. You might have to use the old one two if you went after a Kryat dragon.

Edit:

So my personal opinion is that regardless of what the rules say make certain everyone is having fun (Gygax rule zero).

In the game I attend we have found that if we (the players) take powerful combat abilities it significantly decreases the fun for our GM. We recently restarted as our party was at about 300 xp and very over powered. Something I do well is find exploitable weaknesses in a system. If I wanted to exploit this particular skill I would do it this way:

Race: Transdosian with 5 brawn

Career: Hired gun-Murauder

In seven or eight sessions I would have enough xp to purchase 1 frenzied attach, 2 feral strength, Dr tree, and pressure points.

Four more sessions (investing in medicine) and you can would be able to reliably take down a Rancor each round. This is without hitting twice. You might have to use the old one two if you went after a Kryat dragon.

Edit:

So my personal opinion is that regardless of what the rules say make certain everyone is having fun (Gygax rule zero).

I can think of the party having the running joke of "enter the dragon" (trandoshan is a lizard) whenever the character walked into a bar

Spock actually does a double neck pinch if that is your reference point.