Cycling for a bike race. 100 vs 100 is the only tournament format, so it's going to dominate discussions on the official forums.

NOPE.

Try again.

OP I know you said you want to stick to 100pts free play (hence the restrictions in my first post), but I really do think that leaving out missions (especially when teaching newbies) is a big mistake. The missions offer a clear objective, multiple ways to win, and an extra layer of immersion. They also help break the monotomy of 100 vs 100 free for all.

Kind of like what LordVogl said above: running just raw 100 vs 100 is like just doing one type of training over and over and over and...

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

OP I know you said you want to stick to 100pts free play (hence the restrictions in my first post), but I really do think that leaving out missions (especially when teaching newbies) is a big mistake. The missions offer a clear objective, multiple ways to win, and an extra layer of immersion. They also help break the monotomy of 100 vs 100 free for all.

Kind of like what LordVogl said above: running just raw 100 vs 100 is like just doing one type of training over and over and over and...

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

You if your main goal is to attract the max number of players, you have to alienate some of the elite competatives. If your main goal is to cater to the elite competatives, you have to alienate some of the casuals.

OP I know you said you want to stick to 100pts free play (hence the restrictions in my first post), but I really do think that leaving out missions (especially when teaching newbies) is a big mistake. The missions offer a clear objective, multiple ways to win, and an extra layer of immersion. They also help break the monotomy of 100 vs 100 free for all.

Kind of like what LordVogl said above: running just raw 100 vs 100 is like just doing one type of training over and over and over and...

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

Clearly not all the players, because your numbers are dropping...

true that.

OP I know you said you want to stick to 100pts free play (hence the restrictions in my first post), but I really do think that leaving out missions (especially when teaching newbies) is a big mistake. The missions offer a clear objective, multiple ways to win, and an extra layer of immersion. They also help break the monotomy of 100 vs 100 free for all.

Kind of like what LordVogl said above: running just raw 100 vs 100 is like just doing one type of training over and over and over and...

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

Clearly not all the players, because your numbers are dropping...

And we're assuming that they're all leaving because of no mission play because... why?

I've actually yet to find somewhere that does favour missions. The standard 100 pt match is easier to set up, easier to run, easier to clean up... it's simply more convenient, especially for those who can't bring their whole collections along for whatever reason. Unless you plan with everyone in advance, missions just aren't feasible.

OP I know you said you want to stick to 100pts free play (hence the restrictions in my first post), but I really do think that leaving out missions (especially when teaching newbies) is a big mistake. The missions offer a clear objective, multiple ways to win, and an extra layer of immersion. They also help break the monotomy of 100 vs 100 free for all.

Kind of like what LordVogl said above: running just raw 100 vs 100 is like just doing one type of training over and over and over and...

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

Clearly not all the players, because your numbers are dropping...

And we're assuming that they're all leaving because of no mission play because... why?.

No assumption was made. There was an opinion, but an opinion isn't the same as an assumption.

To the OP, seems you have been doing all the right things in terms of trying to mix up the play style and events, however you have said most players prefer the 100pts standard competitive play format, if that is the case your efforts should maybe be focused on the regular players who are using falcons/phantoms, challenge THEM to do something different (maybe along the line of "if you're so good you shouldn't need a falcon/phantom") if they can show your community it's possible to win by being good with any ship new players may be inspired to experiment with different lists. What sort of size is your community? Can it support a hardcore event and a more casual event (if you have the time to do both?)

I'm fairly lucky, in my community the top players try to out do each other with crazy lists and the new players get to see and play against them, there has only been one list that had a falcon in that has won and no phantoms (in fact defenders are currently more popular in our area).

It only takes one or two good players to do something different/unique and it can change your meta for the better.

Good luck.

One thing I have found with fighting both Phantoms and Fat Falcons is that you don't need to field high PS Elite lists. One I am running now is seeming to do quite well and comprises of Dark Curse, A Black Squadron with Outmaneuver and 2 Bounty Hunters.

It has the staying power and Fire arc abilities to attack both types of ship whilst still being able to deal with support ships and with other lists.

I know it sounds crazy, but it may just be a solution that people do not see coming. I am also going to try the 3 BH list and the 2 BH with Omicron, Gunner, Adv. Sensors and EU. That's a lot of Hull to chew through and a lot of firepower as well.

Generally, if fielding high cost Phantoms and Falcons support is minimal.

Just something off the wall that seems to answer the "meta" for me at the moment.

To the OP, seems you have been doing all the right things in terms of trying to mix up the play style and events, however you have said most players prefer the 100pts standard competitive play format, if that is the case your efforts should maybe be focused on the regular players who are using falcons/phantoms, challenge THEM to do something different (maybe along the line of "if you're so good you shouldn't need a falcon/phantom") if they can show your community it's possible to win by being good with any ship new players may be inspired to experiment with different lists. What sort of size is your community? Can it support a hardcore event and a more casual event (if you have the time to do both?)

I'm fairly lucky, in my community the top players try to out do each other with crazy lists and the new players get to see and play against them, there has only been one list that had a falcon in that has won and no phantoms (in fact defenders are currently more popular in our area).

It only takes one or two good players to do something different/unique and it can change your meta for the better.

Good luck.

Hence my suggestion to offer bonus prize support to anyone who can beat a falcon/phantom list.

While I'm not against the idea of giving away achievement style prizes what if 3 or more people do it? Do they all get a prize? What if you only have one to give away? I'm not having a go or anything we do it in Thrones quite a bit (nods to the story within the game etc)

It's a tricky one, meta shifts can feel really tough on a game, Han feels like a knee jerk reaction to the phantom, but he's a wave 2 ship, good on him taking on the new boys; apparently Han doesn't like Rexlar Brath, if everyone started playing him would people be kicking up a fuss (I doubt it)? At local/low level tournaments the focus should be on fun even if you're playing 100pts competitive format and the best players should be savvy enough to realise that at this level no one cares how many "noobs" they've beaten they should be more interested in where have all the people I enjoy playing with gone, TO's should be able to talk to these players and politely suggest reigning back a touch, don't just bust in and take names or there will soon be no names to take.

While I'm not against the idea of giving away achievement style prizes what if 3 or more people do it? Do they all get a prize? What if you only have one to give away? I'm not having a go or anything we do it in Thrones quite a bit (nods to the story within the game etc)

It's a tricky one, meta shifts can feel really tough on a game, Han feels like a knee jerk reaction to the phantom, but he's a wave 2 ship, good on him taking on the new boys; apparently Han doesn't like Rexlar Brath, if everyone started playing him would people be kicking up a fuss (I doubt it)? At local/low level tournaments the focus should be on fun even if you're playing 100pts competitive format and the best players should be savvy enough to realise that at this level no one cares how many "noobs" they've beaten they should be more interested in where have all the people I enjoy playing with gone, TO's should be able to talk to these players and politely suggest reigning back a touch, don't just bust in and take names or there will soon be no names to take.

No sorry I wasn't trying to sound adversarial.

I see your point. My original suggestion was to give it to the. FIRST person to beat it, or to the highest non-Falc/Phant player, call the achievement "Meta-Breaker" or something.

I'll say it: from the beginning, I believe the 360 arcs should require an action to turn the arc 90 degrees. Thematically, it's like controlling the gunnery compartment from the movie.

(eyeroll) It's a turret. A good player shouldn't need you to hamstring the rules in order for them to have a chance. A bunch or TIEs can pigpile on and wreck a Falcon.

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

If the overwhelming majority of your local players refuse to play any other format than one that, when played competitively, is designed to produce a handful of dominant squads, and if those same players can't resist bringing those dominant squads when playing casually, but they hate playing against those dominant squads, you're screwed. There's no way to fix that until the meta changes.

actually wait, since there are some comments about lists being successful when played against both falcons AND phantoms, would any of you guys mind sharing those here?

If these lists are supposedly that effective, they could just be what I need. Something that would defeat both lists a majority of the time, and hence rewrite the status quo

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

If the overwhelming majority of your local players refuse to play any other format than one that, when played competitively, is designed to produce a handful of dominant squads, and if those same players can't resist bringing those dominant squads when playing casually, but they hate playing against those dominant squads, you're screwed. There's no way to fix that until the meta changes.

yup, you got it exactly on the dot.

this didnt happen in wave 3 because I could successfully convince most players that there really is no such thing as a "best list", so there were a lot of variety back then, and really everybody played what they truly loved, be it bombers or saber squadron or Darth Vader or 3 Xs or what have you

Start small, do a 20 person 'Yavin' campaign/tournament. Make it limited and make it brilliant so that those who could not be bothered to go or missed it really feel like they missed something special.

Change your local gaming culture.

You can do this.

When i was at university there was no live music around of the goth/industrial scene in my area. I started putting small bands on and before i left set up a *festival*... that festival is still running 15 years later (infest festival in bradford in the uk)

All paradigm shifts require someone to get the ball rolling.

If you're going to start your own show, set your own rules and standards down... you might find there are more people like yo who would love a 'only one unique character per list' tourny, or a 'Original trilogy' tourny or a 'battle of endor' day.

You wont know til you try it.

Sure its a risk not putting on a standard 'all comers SWISS system' tourny but no one ever achieved anything truly great by playing it safe.

Fortune favours the brave (well not really but it sounds good)

as much as I'd love to, you must understand that it is players who prefer to play 100pt most of the time. I could try and host all sorts of funny events, but it is their choice to choose not to attend because they prefer standard games you see.

If the overwhelming majority of your local players refuse to play any other format than one that, when played competitively, is designed to produce a handful of dominant squads, and if those same players can't resist bringing those dominant squads when playing casually, but they hate playing against those dominant squads, you're screwed. There's no way to fix that until the meta changes.

yup, you got it exactly on the dot.

this didnt happen in wave 3 because I could successfully convince most players that there really is no such thing as a "best list", so there were a lot of variety back then, and really everybody played what they truly loved, be it bombers or saber squadron or Darth Vader or 3 Xs or what have you

I would suggest trying a 6 TIE Soontir Fel Swarm.

96 points

Soontir Fel + Push the Limit

Howlrunner

4x Academy Pilot

4 points leftover for upgrades / initiative bid. TIEs take care of the Falcon, and Soontir is your ace against PS9 Whisper. ACD Phantoms can either shoot last or move last, both of which Soontir can punish.

Come wave 6 I have a sneaking suspicion we will see something like a 2 point modification that adds +1 defense dice when you are defending an attack from outside the attacker's primary arc. For now try the above. At a minimum it's not a pushover list if flown well.

Am at work ATM, but of no one else posts it there is a good Bounty Hunter list that deals with both I saw today and will share later.

Firesprays do seem like a good choice. Can pack firepower needed to fight the Falcon, and has the arc coverage that can make things difficult for a Phantom.

Be the change you want to see. Crack the code of winning with something else and others will follow. Nothing creates new ideas like successful new ideas. Make an Etahn swarm list that can win, or Rebel aces B and A wing squad of some sort. Make other options look good to the other people there and they will follow.

As someone who is pretty new to Xwing, but has been rather successful in my first couple tourneys (Flying Falcons in some form or another), I would agree with a previous poster that ACD is really the "issue" here. Whether it needs errata, banning, or whatever else isn't something I'm prepared to make a statement about, but were it not for that specific card, I feel that MANY other lists would not have had to adapt to survive in the new meta, and Fat Falcons wouldn't likely be as effective as they are.

The key, I feel, to whether or not other ships can compete is whether or not adapting is possible. If the makers of the game found adapting to ACD phantoms possible, then it's just up to us to figure out what that is. If there really is no way to adapt, then I would personally deem the card oppressive. (opening the discussion of banning/errata)

I bought a Falcon with my core set, so I've been playing Falcons since day one. I realized quickly that traditional swarms would eat me alive, but then playing in my local tourneys (a high caliber of players), I've found that swarms seem severely ineffective against ACD phantoms, and therefore people simply aren't playing them, which then leads to the great effectiveness of Falcons.

I haven't tried to figure it out yet, but I really don't see how traditional swarms can be effective against ACD phantoms. I believe this is the key to breaking the "stalemate" in the meta.

I read through this whole thread and the competitive bias is overwhelming. Most of you won't admit it but the fact that so many push competitive play as the be all and end all of the game is the reason many don't stay with a game, or even bother with it to begin with.

It's not a problem with the game pieces or rules, it's a problem with a far to oblivious set of players! All it takes is one over competitive person who can't see that others might not want to play every single game as if the world rides on it and min/max the most efficient lists every time because they must win to have fun that drive people away from a group. Even a group centered on competitive play will eventually dissolve when the less competitive stop having fun and get sick of dealing with the people who's life seems to revolve around being the most competitive in the world.

Best way to maintain a group is make it known that competitive play should be reserved for tournaments and that casual play is not there so you can refine your tournament list. It's also good to make it policy that people use things that others may find un-fun or over powered in moderation. That's not a blanket ban either, it's having people actually self regulate and not use the best of the best in combination exclusively.

And the biggest tip to maintaining a play group is ensuring members are free to refuse a game against lists or people they find removes the enjoyment of playing. That way those whom view the game from different perspectives can at least co-exist and not have hard feelings. It also has the effect of guiding people who venture into playing the game in a manner the majority don't go for back to a more acceptable form or letting that player know they no longer fit in the group.

Claiming that fat/falcon is not possibly OP because the build has not won a tourney is pretty stupid when five of the top eight winners were falcon lists.

Martel, keep it civil. The point was that the the Falcon at the time of interview was for the first time a national contender.

Fair enough, I will try.

Which supports your claim how exactly? People called fathan and fatchewie as contenders from the start. the addition of c3p0 may have pushed the build a bit more towards OP but the list was strong from the start and most people, especially on these forums knew it. I am distrustful of those that come here and claim fathan is gimped as I suspect those same people are probably playing fat-han builds themselves and doing what they can to keep their build from getting hit with the nerf bat. This is nothing new in games.

I play a four squint list in almost every game so take what i say as you will. I can kill a falcon if I roll above average and my opponent rolls below average. odds will always be in his favor though.

As someone who is pretty new to Xwing, but has been rather successful in my first couple tourneys (Flying Falcons in some form or another), I would agree with a previous poster that ACD is really the "issue" here.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

I am distrustful of those that come here and claim fathan is gimped as I suspect those same people are probably playing fat-han builds themselves and doing what they can to keep their build from getting hit with the nerf bat.

Except the design team spends exactly 0 time perusing these forums, so nothing said here will have any impact on any decision they might make with the Falcon.

I play a four squint list in almost every game so take what i say as you will. I can kill a falcon if I roll above average and my opponent rolls below average. odds will always be in his favor though.

So either accept that you start with a disadvantage or fly another list. Good and bad matchups are a part of every competitive game (by competitive, I mean a game where the object is to win, not necessarily WAAC style play) out there. You accept that any given list will give you a better time in some cases, but will struggle in others.