I'd say 'put away your (targetting) computer... trust your instincts....'

Sheer logic tells me that 50 per cent of the 'random' lists will be below average....

It is for the reason that the op mentions that I have advocated for a Newbie or horsepower limited tourney that caps at wave 2. this allows players to learn the fundamentals. I love the game, but I dont get to play much. I have not even gotten to use the defender or phantom yet myself. I have been in this since wave 1, and I cannot say I am really competent with anything past wave 3. Anyway, I think a protected enviornment to learn the fundamentals is a good thing, especially with the pace of releases lately.

Totally agree.

Loads of people dive in with complicated stuff without taking the time to get the basics in with TIE/lns and x wings.

I do think that the introduction of the Phantom certainly has had an impact. You can see it in game play. Try 48 pts of Tie Fighters vs 44 pts of Phantom. It is VERY hard for the Ties to win. Some might see this as a negative only, but there is at least one positive.

(Please keep in mind i am not claiming that I am a great player or anything. I do fine, but I have yet to win a major event.)

Player skill is easier to differentiate.

Before, any player with hot dice could win with an awesome joust with their Tie Swarm. Sure, there were some things players could do, but there just weren't enough tools in the game to consistently keep the good players winning. Phantom and Fat Han (or any Falcon with C3PO and Engine) provide some tools that previously fell short. Just look at interceptors. It was very difficult to win with them, even with all that maneuverability. They just lacked something, and heck, maybe it was that 4th red die.

Im not sure if this is a good idea on FFGs part, but I for one feel way more rewarded for outmaneuvering with a Phantom than I ever did with an Interceptor. And it really sucked when you'd have an 8 hull, 54pt Falcon on the table, and you'd lose to 3 wounded ties with hot dice, even if you avoided 1 arc each round. I just think FFG is answering those who were crying for less dice reliance and more skill reliance.

Honestly, one of the biggest appeals of the game used to be that there was a good chance for both new and experienced players to win, and it certainly will make it harder for new players to get into the game, but I am glad that at least efforts are being made to keep dedicated players interested. If the Tie Swarm had dominated the meta any longer, i think we'd have seen even more players quit.

Also, If you look at the players who don't make the cut, plenty of them are running Fat Han and Phantoms. They just didnt make the cut.

@Duraham. Wave 5 will shake things up a bit. Well see more turrets, sure, but less C3P0, which many claim was the reason for Fat Han's success. Also, I anticipate some good Defender and Firespray lists will do well. Itll be a meta of HLC more than Phantom and Fat Han. And in response to this, I bet a few swarms will do really well. Just keep watch on the upcoming Team Covenant Vassal tournament if you haven't entered (which you should do by today's deadline, early in the day if possible).

Just let new players know that change IS coming. In the form of Wave 5 and Rebel aces. The game is evolving, and shouldn't be discouraged.

Though, Im of the mind that C3P0 + Mill Falcon title might be too good of a combo for its cost, hehe.

Top 8 from GenCon 2014

Winner - Rick Sidebotham (#1 Swiss, 23 pts, 754 MoV, flight 1): Whisper + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control Systems + Advanced Cloaking Device + Gunner; Soontir Fel + Push the Limit; Captain Yorr

2nd place - Jeff Berling (#3 Swiss, 20 pts, 802 MoV, flight 1): Chewbacca + Millennium Falcon + C-3P0 + R2-D2 + Draw Their Fire; Lando + Nien Nunb + Han Solo + Draw Their Fire

Top 4 - Paul Heaver (#2 Swiss, 21 pts, 763 MoV, flight 1, lost to Jeff): Han Solo + Luke Skywalker + Veteran Instincts + C-3P0 + Millennium Falcon + Engine Upgrade; Biggs; Tala Squadron Pilot

Top 4 - Nick Jones (lost to winner, #4 Swiss, 20 pts, 758 MoV, flight 1): Howlrunner + Push the Limit; 6x Obsidian Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - David Pontier (lost to Nick, #5 Swiss, 20 pts, 745 MoV, flight 2): Han Solo + Determination + Luke Skywalker + Millenium Falcon; Corran Horn + Push the Limit + R2-D2 + Fire Control System

Top 8 - James Elhardt (lost to 2nd place, #6 Swiss, 20 pts, 694 MoV, flight 1): Han Solo + C-3P0 + Mercenary Copilit + Veteran Instincts; 4x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - Matt Baxter (lost to Paul, #7 Swiss, 20 pts, 691 MoV, flight 1): Han Solo + C-3P0 + Mercenary Copilit + Veteran Instincts; 4x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - Dominic Cairo (lost to winner, #8 Swiss, 18 pts, 650 MoV, flight 1): Bounty Hunter; 2x Omicron Group Pilot + Fire-Control System; Omicron Group Pilot

Top 8 lists... 2 falcons in the top 4 five falcons in the top 8... yeah....

I said MY COMMUNITY, not yours. Here's the data from the Malaysian Regionals. It is the most relevant data because this occured awhile after we have already received wave 4 and have the community stabilize.

*point to clarify, I'm from Singapore, and we have players who attend tournaments and game nights on both sides of the border. Sorta like USA /Canada if you will*

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/111344-2014-malaysia-regionals/

Data

Top 8

1. Wei Jia - Chewie + MF Title + C3P0 + Predator + Luke + EU, 3x Tala

2. James - Chewie + Predator, 2x Bandits, Dagger + HLC

3. Chris - Rexlar + Outmanoeuvre + EU + HLC, 4x Academy

4. Az - Chewie + MF Title + C3P0 + Luke, 2x Tala, Tala + Assault Missile

5. Vick - Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS, Howlrunner, 3x Obsidian

6. Chu Heng - Whisper + VI + ACD + FCS, Echo + Outmanoeuvre, 2x AP

7. Matthew - Whisper + Tactician + FCS + VI + ACD, Krassis + HLC + Rebel Captive, AP

8. Justin - Echo + VI + FCS + ACD + Rebel Captive, 5x AP

We also held a shop tournament last month, where the top 2 was a double falcon and a double phantom list. I do not have any further data as I was absent from that tournament

I guess it all comes down to perspective and how you analyze things.

Martel, you see 5 Falcon squads, period. I look at those 5 squads that have a Falcon in them, and see 4 very, very different squads. A double Falcon, a Falcon and Corran, a Falcon and Biggs, and the Falcon and Talas. Heck, I didn't even get into the different Falcon pilots and already see a diversity in squads. It's why I don't really agree with how MajorJuggler analyzes the winning squads. Too much focus on how often an individual ship is used, less on how it is used within a squad. Sure, it's fun numbers, but it doesn't really tell me as a whole the state of the metagame.

Now, Duraham's top 8 looks to be a bit more similar in squad types. And quite honestly, there isn't much you can do. Once group think sets in, it's tough to break out of it.

I think you just need to host a different type of event. Maybe one where there is only allowed 1 of each unique pilot in the whole event. People have to pre-register and draw a number. Lowest number gets first pick of a special character. Keep going until everyone's got a list. There will only be 1 Han. There will only be 1 Whisper. Things like that.

Or......have an event where half the people take Fat Han and the rest just try to come up with ways to kill Fat Han. That way, everyone works on ways to kill that specific ship. Do the same for the Phantom. Have people come up with the best way to kill them. That will help de-mystify the ships.

There's also the idea of just having story driven events. Have events that impact each other. Either run a campaign and everyone runs the same, but you tally up which side one. Next mission is based on which side one. Things like that until you have the winner for the battle. Or....you set up a fight with each smaller table as a part of the bigger. Something like 4 tables fight. The ships that are left over then meet in the middle for a big fight there. Limit the special characters there, too. Just make it a different game.

To quote waynes dream in waynes world.... 'if you build it they will come'

This quote is actually from Field of dreams that they parodied later in Wayne's World. But Wayne's World was such a good movie that I can see why you would quote it from there instead of the original!

...

Regarding the OP, are you the only one that feel this way in your region? Do you have some friends that share this worry?

Remember that when wave 4 came out, everybody got scared of the Phantom so everyone build a team accordingly, the turrets and high PS being the easiest answers. Now that the Falcon's build as set in, you need to adapt to this new threat. Some regions seems to have done so, yours doesn't seems to have crack it yet.

Maybe if you and some friends make builds specifically meant to destroy Falcon builds in the next tournament, you will show those players that this is not the be-all-end-all squadron that they think it is. If nobody scare those crows away, they'll definetly end-up eating all the crops.

Cant say i've seen field of dreams... that's why i quoted wayne's world 2

it is virtually impossible to beat a Phantom list unless you've taken something to specifically counter it, e.g. a Falcon build.

Good Sir, I hereby call BS on the above, it is only impossible if you stick to traditional formation flying against Echo/Whisper.

Adapt, and as mentioned above - widen your firing arcs. Should you choose to bring a long a stress inducing ability then it becomes even easier to wreck them.

You make it sound so easy. In my experience, it is not. Basically, the choice appears to be to spread out your firing arcs and hope for a couple of shots on a 4-agility cloaked Phantom, while the rest of the Phantom's list chews you up through focus fire, or you take a specific Phantom counter as I said, such as a stress inducer, of which there are currently only a couple that will definitely stick and you usually still need to catch the Phantom in your arc.

My point stands. The Phantom is the only ship you specifically MUST take a counter for to be able to beat (unless luck is massively on your side, or the Phantom player doesn't know what he's doing). There is no other ship that does that and it destroys casual play.

To quote waynes dream in waynes world.... 'if you build it they will come'

This quote is actually from Field of dreams that they parodied later in Wayne's World. But Wayne's World was such a good movie that I can see why you would quote it from there instead of the original!

...

Regarding the OP, are you the only one that feel this way in your region? Do you have some friends that share this worry?

Remember that when wave 4 came out, everybody got scared of the Phantom so everyone build a team accordingly, the turrets and high PS being the easiest answers. Now that the Falcon's build as set in, you need to adapt to this new threat. Some regions seems to have done so, yours doesn't seems to have crack it yet.

Maybe if you and some friends make builds specifically meant to destroy Falcon builds in the next tournament, you will show those players that this is not the be-all-end-all squadron that they think it is. If nobody scare those crows away, they'll definetly end-up eating all the crops.

the consensus here seem to be more of phantom is on par with the falcon, as opposed to the falcon triumphing over the phantom. Because honestly, cloaked phantom double focus is pretty much the only ship that can reliably dodge chewbacca predator luke crew, and because of how the phantom and the falcon are on par with each other, any anti falcon builds are wrecked by the phantom rather easily, and vice versa, so there isnt really anything playable outside from these 2

Some of us have wave 5 early, and it's back to the same problem, although the decimator + vader combo does give the phantom a run for its money. In fact, wave 5 is particularly worrying because the phantoms have some very hard counters, whereas there isn't much stuff that could address either the falcon or the upcoming outrider, and given the current on-par status between the falcon and the phantom, removing 1 would mean the other would take over as the overwhelming meta choice.

Discussion wise, we are mostly looking into the Defender, since they can fight both ships; falcon with outmaneuver, phantoms by simply getting behind them with K4 and see them struggle to turn around, especially non-echo phantoms, but so far the Defender is really lacking, in that it is very expensive and very dicey.

What's a Fat Han list?

Maxed out yt1300 with a falcon title, c3po and possibly luke or a gunner

Basically a durable, rolls a lot of hits, falcon that can tackle phantoms as its firing 3 red 360

What's a Fat Han list?

Cookie Monster with gunner/luke, C3P0, engine upgrade, MF title etcetc

What's a Fat Han list?

I can't really watch that at work, maybe I should go home...

I find the best way to counter a Phantom list is with Y wing and Ion. Add a couple of Z-95s with Assualt missles in case you run into swarms and you are generally good to go. Change Assault missles to any other type to take care of the Millennium Falcon. Generally 5

Maxed out yt1300 with a falcon title, c3po and possibly luke or a gunner

Basically a durable, rolls a lot of hits, falcon that can tackle phantoms as its firing 3 red 360

Ah, thanks.

I don't get Gunner/Luke though - how often does a three red attack miss? Not that often in my experience. I suppose it's about getting rid of the enemy's focus token?

I found an XXYY ion turret list with Garvin and Dutch took down echo quickly in two games.

Just keep the fire arcs spread out on the x wings and have one of the Ys hog the middle.

Maxed out yt1300 with a falcon title, c3po and possibly luke or a gunner

Basically a durable, rolls a lot of hits, falcon that can tackle phantoms as its firing 3 red 360

Ah, thanks.

I don't get Gunner/Luke though - how often does a three red attack miss? Not that often in my experience. I suppose it's about getting rid of the enemy's focus token?

I dont play super min max lists but i assume as the 'fat han' is a counter to phantoms its so that you can ensue that when you *do* get a shot at echo (or whomever) you're taking him down, or at least getting in some hull dmage and rinsing his shields in that fire round.

I don't, and have never, seen Phantoms be a huge issue. They can be annoying as hell on those turns when the greens are hot, but if not... well, they have the staying power of a Z95. I can, and do, get arcs on them all the time, against competent players. However, ACD is powerful, probably too good for the price, but rather than ban it, I think it could easily be toned down. Change it so that it awards a free cloak in the end phase so your opponent has the entire turn to shoot at it, and you're done. Still gets its bonus, still gets to maneuver, but even lower PS pilots get a shot. Helps put an end to the super PS arms race. Makes the Stygian actually worth considering, as well as the lower PS Phantoms that currently may well as not even exist.

Fat YTs are a bigger issue, but we don't know yet what effect Waves 5 and 6 will do to that. I really think they need a damage deck update to include things like Crew, Mods, and Systems, but that's only a marginal and unpredictable effect on the game. I do believe that FFG underestimated the effect that giving the most durable ship in the game 2 evades per turn would have, as it's neither C3PO or the MF title, it's both. And god help us when Lando plus Experimental Interface gets thrown in there.

Back to the OP's topic, I don't know what you do to encourage retention. Honestly, the game should be fun, and if your local meta is going all in on Phantoms and Falcons (as shown by your tourney data), the only option will probably be to ride that out. Metas tend to change, and maybe Rebel Aces, Waves 5 and 6 will do enough to shake Falcons and Phantoms back into an option rather than mandatory inclusion in order to be competitive. I'll be honest, I have zero interest in tournament play right now as simply gearing up to play those types of lists seems quite dull, and I'm lucky that I have a group where everyone has a decent collection to mix things up and not get stale. But I am concerned that gimmick ships like Phantoms and Fat Falcons are going to have staying power, and that core ships like X-Wings are losing their place. The longer something like this goes, the more extreme the measure will have to be to nerf things back into balance, which never leaves a good feeling for anyone. I have no reason not to trust FFG moving forward, but I am wary that they have no plan as yet, despite what they claim in interviews.

I don't get Gunner/Luke though - how often does a three red attack miss? Not that often in my experience. I suppose it's about getting rid of the enemy's focus token?

When shooting at a TIE Phantom with 4 defense dice, quite often. A gunnerless, lower PS YT-1300 is NOT a counter to an ACD TIE Phantom.

To the OP: would you consider sacrilege, and playing with House Rules that include a bunch of technical balance fixes to make the less competitive pilots and upgrades usable? It would increase build diversity for sure. I am working on a full set of changes but have not published them. You can see the example for TIE Interceptors here:

Discussion wise, we are mostly looking into the Defender, since they can fight both ships; falcon with outmaneuver, phantoms by simply getting behind them with K4 and see them struggle to turn around, especially non-echo phantoms, but so far the Defender is really lacking, in that it is very expensive and very dicey.

Brath with a HLC is a serious counter to both those ship. If you already have wave 5, I suggest giving him Lonewolf for more survivability. If it's still not legal, go with predator. Pair him with a mini swarm and it will be very good against the Falcon and still present a threat to the Phantom list by keeping his distance to have a big line of sight. If you are too worried by the Phantom, give him VI and laugh at them by moving after them to reposition with barrel roll and laugh at them by shooting 4 dice vs their 2.

Funny that if we look at the top 8 from your tournament result, that's exactly that kind of build that made it into third position.

Discussion wise, we are mostly looking into the Defender, since they can fight both ships; falcon with outmaneuver, phantoms by simply getting behind them with K4 and see them struggle to turn around, especially non-echo phantoms, but so far the Defender is really lacking, in that it is very expensive and very dicey.

Brath with a HLC is a serious counter to both those ship. If you already have wave 5, I suggest giving him Lonewolf for more survivability. If it's still not legal, go with predator. Pair him with a mini swarm and it will be very good against the Falcon and still present a threat to the Phantom list by keeping his distance to have a big line of sight. If you are too worried by the Phantom, give him VI and laugh at them by moving after them to reposition with barrel roll and laugh at them by shooting 4 dice vs their 2.

Funny that if we look at the top 8 from your tournament result, that's exactly that kind of build that made it into third position.

well, the player ultimately got defeated by 2 falcon lists, and lost to every single phantom list he faced, not to mention how the defender is arguably more difficult to fly effectively than either the falcon or the phantom. Also, the problem with it being too dicey and prone to accidents.

And no, I do not think house rules would be a good way to settle this problem. I believe most players would want to stick with the original game as far as possible. I am currently looking more into scenario based gameplay, although i doubt the reception would be good given how most players here still prefer standard games

If enough players are leaving cos they're not enjoying it, surely those players would be open to some banning of certain cards (or house rulesing), such as ACD?

No a tiny amount of tournament players are unhappy. They dont make up the mass of xwing players who generally dont have an issue.

As always however your minority is vocal. People post more when upset.

Consider the old adage: get good service you'll tell one person, get bad service you tell nine.

I recently asked a question on the forum whether or not it was time to move on to mission based matchups / tournaments etc.

I still maintain that using a system like that can go a long way to nullifying the issues that the OP has expressed.

There are some amazing scenario writers on here.