Just ban the whole game. Problem solved.

Of note, neither the Falcon nor any other large ship build has ever before won a national tournament.

Only because the Falcon player who likely would have won the gencon tournament decided to let their opponent take back a fatal mistake and re-cloak their phantom. Which just illustrates the problem with only looking at the winning list: you have a tiny sample size that is highly dependent on factors other than list construction (dice, player mistakes, etc). When you look at the top 8/16/etc from major tournaments you see a lot more Falcons.

If the game out of the box isn't doing it, I recommend having events with restrictions. Maybe run a tournament with no Fat Han and no top tier Phantoms. If you are worried about them ruining the game, then cut them out for a bit.

Either that or run some scenarios.

Banning things rarely does much good.

1. it basically puts a big sign up saying your designers made a mistake.. few companies like doing this

2. you alienate more players than you accomodate. Because if you've paid for that card/ship you're going to be hacked off... if you dont like that card/ship you probably dont own it. Why would a company hack off the proportion that is buying stuff?

3. making a counter card solves it in a better way. You allieviate the problem from a ship/card, you dont completely negate the existing card (and hack off the owners) and more importantly you create an item people want to buy!

Of note, neither the Falcon nor any other large ship build has ever before won a national tournament.

Only because the Falcon player who likely would have won the gencon tournament decided to let their opponent take back a fatal mistake and re-cloak their phantom. Which just illustrates the problem with only looking at the winning list: you have a tiny sample size that is highly dependent on factors other than list construction (dice, player mistakes, etc). When you look at the top 8/16/etc from major tournaments you see a lot more Falcons.

Its also not wise to assume that 'the tournament scene' is the same as 'the xwing scene'. As i've said on a a few threads if you start playing narrative based scenarios these 'rules problems' dissapear. More so if you play against people you know and like, not strangers as you're friends are less likely to pull a d i c k move to get a win.

1. it basically puts a big sign up saying your designers made a mistake.. few companies like doing this

That's because most companies are stupid. A smart company knows that sometimes, despite all your hard work in playtesting, you publish a mistake. And sometimes it's better to ban one thing than to stick to an arbitrary "no bans" policy and allow it to damage the overall health of the game. This is one of the reasons why MTG has been a successful competitive game for so long, when things do get really bad WOTC is willing to step in and fix the problem.

2. you alienate more players than you accomodate. Because if you've paid for that card/ship you're going to be hacked off... if you dont like that card/ship you probably dont own it. Why would a company hack off the proportion that is buying stuff?

1) If you ban ACD you can still use the phantom(s) you bought. I mean, compare the generic phantom with a hull upgrade to a generic x-wing: for an additional 7 points you get a "HLC" that gets 5 dice at range 1, arguably a better maneuver dial, barrel roll and evade, +1 PS, crew and system slots, and a cloak action that you might occasionally use. Considering a HLC alone costs 7 points and is considered a viable option I think it's safe to say that phantoms would still be good even without ACD.

2) Losing players isn't an issue for the OP. They're already losing players because of this issue, so the worst that can happen is that they ban something and nothing changes.

3. making a counter card solves it in a better way. You allieviate the problem from a ship/card, you dont completely negate the existing card (and hack off the owners) and more importantly you create an item people want to buy!

No, because a specific counter card just creates a broken metagame where you have X lists and anti-X lists that can only really beat X. The better solution is to deal with X directly and open up the metagame again.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Personally i think adding an upgrade that lessens the effect of ACD is a more positive response than banning something

The again i'm all about positivity

Personally I dont see the issue. I've only played against echo with ACD twice and shredded him pretty early on both times.

I won one game, lost the other but echo went down both times and i think Rob , my opponent, is a much better player than me.

it is virtually impossible to beat a Phantom list unless you've taken something to specifically counter it, e.g. a Falcon build.

Good Sir, I hereby call BS on the above, it is only impossible if you stick to traditional formation flying against Echo/Whisper.

Adapt, and as mentioned above - widen your firing arcs. Should you choose to bring a long a stress inducing ability then it becomes even easier to wreck them.

Players here mostly feel that without fielding either the falcon or the phantom, it is impossible to win any games,

Are they ex-40K? The mentality of the game is won in the metagame seems to originate from Games Workshop's stuff.

As I am the TO for one of the shops, as well as being quite involved in planning things for the community, I have observed this worrying trend, and I wonder how I could fix this.

Maybe run a tournament where people have to submit their lists ahead of time and only one of each archetype is allowed: if someone's put in Super Phantom already then Super Phantom is taken. Force variety, and then watch the phantoms and Falcons die and your players learn how to kill them.

That, or run a "Ghostbusting 101 and Clipping The Falcon's Wings: How To Kill These Ships" day with all the FFG forum's best advice on taking these two ships down. After that run a tournament where people who take neither the Falcon nor the phantom win a prize for each one they beat, and the phantom/Falcon players win a prize for going undefeated.

They aren't overpowered: it's an illusion but a VERY pervasive one. Give them the skills and knowledge they need to take those two ships down and their dominance will fizzle.

That, and bring a TIE swarm yourself and steamroll the Phantom and Falcon opposition.

Players here mostly feel that without fielding either the falcon or the phantom, it is impossible to win any games,

Are they ex-40K? The mentality of the game is won in the metagame seems to originate from Games Workshop's stuff.

I would attribute this more to local culture as a whole than just ex-40k players

anyway, regarding the phantoms, I agree with iPeregrine that ACD really is the big problem. I've mentioned in other threads before that I feel the phantom simply wasnt designed with ACD in mind, seeing how the 4atk dice was supposed to make up for the fact that you have to spend 1 turn cloaked and 1 turn decloaked. With ACD you now have a very power 4 atk 4 agi ship that is pretty much like this all the time if it has a higher PS than everybody, not to mention the ability to decloak every single turn makes it easily the most impossibly maneuverable ship in the game currently, which I really do not think it was supposed to be.

falcon wise, the consensus is more along the lines of "you are crazy enough to blow your paycheck on the tantive for that 1 piece of cardboard, you really deserve to win". Unfortunately this also means that consensus on the game has somewhat degraded into a "Xwing is a pay to win game"

Players here mostly feel that without fielding either the falcon or the phantom, it is impossible to win any games,

Are they ex-40K? The mentality of the game is won in the metagame seems to originate from Games Workshop's stuff.

I would attribute this more to local culture as a whole than just ex-40k players

anyway, regarding the phantoms, I agree with iPeregrine that ACD really is the big problem. I've mentioned in other threads before that I feel the phantom simply wasnt designed with ACD in mind, seeing how the 4atk dice was supposed to make up for the fact that you have to spend 1 turn cloaked and 1 turn decloaked. With ACD you now have a very power 4 atk 4 agi ship that is pretty much like this all the time if it has a higher PS than everybody, not to mention the ability to decloak every single turn makes it easily the most impossibly maneuverable ship in the game currently, which I really do not think it was supposed to be.

falcon wise, the consensus is more along the lines of "you are crazy enough to blow your paycheck on the tantive for that 1 piece of cardboard, you really deserve to win". Unfortunately this also means that consensus on the game has somewhat degraded into a "Xwing is a pay to win game"

So what happened when people looked at the third place list at your nationals that included the much-maligned defender?

It seems like the players in your area are in the worst kind of groupthink. To win they have to bring one of two ships and that experimenting is either too much work or too much risk, and that in and of itself, the game isn't fun.

As for what you could do, it would have to be something the players want. If they're sick of phantoms and falcons, would they participate in a retro Wave 1-3 tourney? Otherwise, yeah, it sounds like they're in a bit of a rut and maybe won't come back around until S+V.

Perhaps try more escalation, epic, or other point value games. That will change things up a bit.

Perhaps also team games, say 200vs200, or even 100vs100 but the points are split 50 per teammate.

Even maybe try my 24 or 24x2 format. No unique pilots allowed. Build lists that are only 24 points and combine two of them for a 48 point list. This stops any Falcons and Phantoms. Its also a lot of fun still to play.

While I agree with the original post, you are alienating people who are agreeing with you by trying to distinguish YOUR COMMUNITY. Then you misinterpret people agreeing with you and think they are calling you a liar. People are linking Gencon to agree that they think "Falcon Phantom Falcon Phantom" is becoming an issue. Maybe you're struggling with a language barrier, but be nicer when asking for help. I know you're prone to ranting and doomsaying, but I really wanted to give this thread a chance.

We are running a league at the moment where you are only allowed one named pilot and that pilot is unique within the league, so no two Hans etc.

There are 25 of us playing across five divisions with each division champ and 3 best runners up will play elimination for the final overall victor.

The games are standard 100 pt games with minor extra VP's available by rolling on a small objective table.

For example, if your named pilot survives the game +10 VP's.

The pilots were chosen based on a draft order which was decided by where you came in the last league. (Last place picked first this time)

We are all having a blast and lot's of unique lists are turning up.

My first league game last week was against Whisper, and Academy and 2 Shuttles.

I had Dark Curse (my league choice), a Black squadron and 2 x Firespray.

I won the game, but it was a great deal of fun as neither of us was running "meta" lists so we had to rely on our flying.

We both had a couple of upgrades.

The format is fun and the "meta" lists simply don't apply.

Perhaps you could try this or something similar?

1) If you ban ACD you can still use the phantom(s) you bought. I mean, compare the generic phantom with a hull upgrade to a generic x-wing: for an additional 7 points you get a "HLC" that gets 5 dice at range 1, arguably a better maneuver dial, barrel roll and evade, +1 PS, crew and system slots, and a cloak action that you might occasionally use. Considering a HLC alone costs 7 points and is considered a viable option I think it's safe to say that phantoms would still be good even without ACD.

I think you're oversimplifying things. Getting 4 dice at range 2 is not the same as having a HLC. As it can be seen with Ion Cannons, a very important part of the cannon upgrade is the fact that your opponent doesn't get additional dice from range 3 attacks.

My personal way to fix this is as follows:

1 - Against anyone who is new or who constantly tries new fleets, I try one of my new or weird fleet (because I'm running tests).

2 - Against anyone playing a fat Han or Whisper, I bring out one of my experimental fleets specifically tailored to break those (still experimenting in that area).

A lot of players assemble one fleet for the evening and stick with it, so I can spot them in advance with a quick look. If, through multiple play sessions, I spot someone who always does one of those combos, I'll memorize it and try to create a counter fleet for next time. The advantage of having a good sorting system with pre-made lists on my phone is that I can switch fleets in under 3 minutes .

Ive got an idea. How about we just agree not to talk about "why" we think the game is feeling stale or unbalanced and try and find different ways that we can really change up our game experience with minimal effort.

While I agree with the original post, you are alienating people who are agreeing with you by trying to distinguish YOUR COMMUNITY. Then you misinterpret people agreeing with you and think they are calling you a liar. People are linking Gencon to agree that they think "Falcon Phantom Falcon Phantom" is becoming an issue. Maybe you're struggling with a language barrier, but be nicer when asking for help. I know you're prone to ranting and doomsaying, but I really wanted to give this thread a chance.

I misinterpreted what he was trying to say, mistaking him for one of those "learn to fly better n00b herpderp" posters, and for that I am truly sorry.

Another thing for you Duraham (and it is good news) is we are very much past the Falcon/Phantom wins everything in our area. The people here have adapted and although we see Phantoms and Falcons, they are not dominating the scene.

I personally am having great success with Corran Horn and some friends as I see fit. E'tahn is having a lot of fun and the Defender is handing out the punishment.

Y-wings with Ion's are back in vogue as well, X-wings to. Many folks are also excited for Rebel Aces and new Tie formations with the higher PS generics with Predator and Outmaneuver are also popular.

I think it takes a few brave folks to try new lists and defeat the "meta" and everyone else moves along.

Oh.

Actually, the easiest way to defeat this menace and increase player skill is simply this:

Go to the http://xwing-builder.co.uk/build builder.

Print 3 lists using the smart randomizer for each player. (You can save these printouts). They pick one and fly that the rest of the tournament.

Seems like your group is very into the game and has good players. They should have any required parts for at least one of the 3 lists. They should borrow amongst their friends if they don't, and perhaps allow some proxying if need be, after all, its all going to be random.

Heres an example:

"The meta doesn't need fixing, the fan hysteria does. I don't know how to fix that. "

This.

I think positive criticism of list or deployment choices can go a long way.

The problem with the 'smart' builder is that it isnt.

I just told it to pick me an elite imperial squad of 100 points ( i use that builder site all the time, never noticed the random builder before) and it picked me four pilots, gave them all 'munitions failsafe' but not one of them had any munitions...

bit of a waste of four points

The problem with the 'smart' builder is that it isnt.

I just told it to pick me an elite imperial squad of 100 points ( i use that builder site all the time, never noticed the random builder before) and it picked me four pilots, gave them all 'munitions failsafe' but not one of them had any munitions...

bit of a waste of four points

Try three lists. Also take a look at what I posted. Can you find immediately some REALLY bad uses of points? Say... autoblaster?

It evens out very well. Though, that munitions failsafe is really a un-smart bug they should fix.

In the first list: there is Jan Ors with no ICT and Push the Limit is useless on her.

In the second list: Maarek Stele, and Autoblaster

In the third list: Jan Ors with nothing. Rebel Operative with no ICT and both Recon Spec and Moldy Crow. This list is completely unusable.

I'd pick list 2 to be honest. Though List 1 is okay too.

Again, this makes the game more fun.

Try not to think with just limited perspective of one viewpoint or one example.

I did do three.

One imperial swarm, one imperial elite and one rebel.

Like i say 1/3rd of the lists was particularly bad, the one with the failsafes

the other two were sub optimal.

But its random, perhaps im just getting poor selections....

I did do three.

One imperial swarm, one imperial elite and one rebel.

Like i say 1/3rd of the lists was particularly bad, the one with the failsafes

the other two were sub optimal.

But its random, perhaps im just getting poor selections....

Well, you only have to pick the best one you know...

Also, random will have some outliers. Somebody might get a really good list. Well. That's life and random draft.

They're all suboptimal. In fact, they're intentionally bad.