Hi all,

I have this current problem in my community, whereby players are gradually not playing Xwing anymore, and I have problems trying to attract new players to start as well, mainly because of the whole Falcon X Phantom issue. Players here mostly feel that without fielding either the falcon or the phantom, it is impossible to win any games, and this has severely hampered efforts to try and prove otherwise, mostly because these efforts usually fall flat. In the end, even for casual games, the falcons and phantoms are ubiquitous, and this continued monotony has been gradually weaning players off Xwing miniatures, and into other games / hobbies.

Our community have tried running events (tourneys and leagues) to keep things fresh and to encourage players to try out other stuff, but players on the whole tend to prefer competitive 100pt games, and once again it is only falcon / phantom / falcon / phantom. We do have wave 5 ships here already, and those who got them has since moved on to the outrider / decimator, which doesnt do anything to address the issue of "you must play this in order to even have a chance of winning"

Prior to wave 4, the community had a very nice assortment of lists, where most ships and builds were accounted for in reasonable numbers. At the Regionals and all tournaments at that time period, there were all sorts of builds. Jonus 4 bombers won one of the tournaments, Royal TIEint PTLs, dual falcons, 8 TIEswarm, XXBB and other variants, Darth Vader TIEadv and 2 wingman, Shuttle builds etcetc, and now the game has degraded to falcon phantom falcon phantom. As I am the TO for one of the shops, as well as being quite involved in planning things for the community, I have observed this worrying trend, and I wonder how I could fix this.

Run themed events with pre-made lists, or campaigns with "story characters" that they can choose from? For instance, have Luke and Wedge flying patrol, allow them a wingman and any upgrades, but they must have X Pilots. Something like that. Then "DM" a game for them. Who knows, you can even have them cooperate and face just you as a bunch of stock TIEs and other things. Or run a game where you're taking part in a larger battle, like the Battle of Endor, and have a flight of bombers trying to make it from one side of a 4' x 3' to the other to make a run on Home One. Intercept and wipe them before they get there. Stuff like that.

well, the community tends to prefer 100pt standard tournaments, based on feedback and attendance at the various events so far

even for casual games, 100pt standard is played nearly all the time.

It's the latest craze to say the game has devolved into Fat Han vs Phantom vs Swarm and nothing else can win competitively. It's just mad groupthink.

Watch the designers talk about the top lists at the 2014 GenCon at the beginning of this interview. At minute 9:00 they talk about turrets in general. At another point they discuss a turret counter coming in the Star Viper expansion.

The meta doesn't need fixing, the fan hysteria does. I don't know how to fix that.

I find it a little sad that someone (not you OP) would buy in to this amazingly fun hobby and then only ever play Falcon/Phantom because they have to win. Even (as you say) in CASUAL. No wonder they are leaving...what a boring community ethos.

Some suggestions:

1) Run a 4-ship small tournament. I.E. All players must have 4 ships in their list, and all small.

2) Run a setting-specific tournament. No unique cards, only pre-Yavin ships (Falc did not join the rebellion until Yavin).

3) Run a 33 campaign. Each player must build three 33pt lists which they will then field as a unified 99pt team. Each of the three teams MUST cost 33pts or less.

4) Offer a really juicy bonus prize for the first player to beat a Falcon/Phantom list without using either ship. This will help readjust the meta, and get people thinking.

Run an escalation tournament, missions, or a multi-week campaign.

First off, thanks for posting this Duraham. As a TO you are far more invested in the health of the game than an average player, and I'm sure that it took some courage to post that you were having difficulty retaining players. I know that feeling being an RPG gamemaster, and folks come and go from my campaigns all the time. Secondly, I hope this thread does degenerate into a hysterical beatdown about how Fat Han has ruined the game. If that's the primary reason for why you're having player retention issues, I totally believe you.

About a month ago the guy who got me into this game told me he was taking a 'hiatus' so he can go back to Warmachine. He told me at our last session he got totally smashed by a Fat Han list and he didn't think the game has the same legs as WM or even stuff like Dystopian Wars. He even waxed about going back to Warhammer Fantasy Battles, which I thought was a bit extreme. The point is, we lost him temporarily, at least I hope. The other guys also play other games and are starting to look in other directions.

I've read all the "Fat Han Broke the Game" threads. Yes, the guys who present the argument that the game is still balanced and things are fine make great cases and sales of the game have never been better. But here in my local ecosystem, not so much. The real harbinger was finding out that my regular weekly opponent split to play Hearthstone! The stupidest thing is I rarely even see Fat Han lists at my meetup, but it's the perception that the game is worse off because of Fat Han that I think is the crux of the matter.

And it's something I think about when I'm teaching a new player the game. I show them a cool list that has some tricks while I'm thinking to myself, "I really should be showing this kid some Falcon/Anti-Falcon lists". I almost feel like bringing the subject up around rookie players will drive them away, fearing that if their first experience is getting wiped by a beardy falcon list they'll just go play WM like everyone else.

So I feel ya, man.

As for your tournaments, you might want to look into adding a List Composition Score as a band-aid fix. Having a popular 'net list' pilot in your list takes a few points off your comp score...although I can see how that can get sticky real quick. It's a good thing I'm not a TO.

Anyhow, goodluck with your group.

Top 8 from GenCon 2014

Winner - Rick Sidebotham (#1 Swiss, 23 pts, 754 MoV, flight 1): Whisper + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control Systems + Advanced Cloaking Device + Gunner; Soontir Fel + Push the Limit; Captain Yorr

2nd place - Jeff Berling (#3 Swiss, 20 pts, 802 MoV, flight 1): Chewbacca + Millennium Falcon + C-3P0 + R2-D2 + Draw Their Fire; Lando + Nien Nunb + Han Solo + Draw Their Fire

Top 4 - Paul Heaver (#2 Swiss, 21 pts, 763 MoV, flight 1, lost to Jeff): Han Solo + Luke Skywalker + Veteran Instincts + C-3P0 + Millennium Falcon + Engine Upgrade; Biggs; Tala Squadron Pilot

Top 4 - Nick Jones (lost to winner, #4 Swiss, 20 pts, 758 MoV, flight 1): Howlrunner + Push the Limit; 6x Obsidian Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - David Pontier (lost to Nick, #5 Swiss, 20 pts, 745 MoV, flight 2): Han Solo + Determination + Luke Skywalker + Millenium Falcon; Corran Horn + Push the Limit + R2-D2 + Fire Control System

Top 8 - James Elhardt (lost to 2nd place, #6 Swiss, 20 pts, 694 MoV, flight 1): Han Solo + C-3P0 + Mercenary Copilit + Veteran Instincts; 4x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - Matt Baxter (lost to Paul, #7 Swiss, 20 pts, 691 MoV, flight 1): Han Solo + C-3P0 + Mercenary Copilit + Veteran Instincts; 4x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - Dominic Cairo (lost to winner, #8 Swiss, 18 pts, 650 MoV, flight 1): Bounty Hunter; 2x Omicron Group Pilot + Fire-Control System; Omicron Group Pilot

Top 8 lists... 2 falcons in the top 4 five falcons in the top 8... yeah....

I said MY COMMUNITY, not yours. Here's the data from the Malaysian Regionals. It is the most relevant data because this occured awhile after we have already received wave 4 and have the community stabilize.

*point to clarify, I'm from Singapore, and we have players who attend tournaments and game nights on both sides of the border. Sorta like USA /Canada if you will*

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/111344-2014-malaysia-regionals/

Data

Top 8

1. Wei Jia - Chewie + MF Title + C3P0 + Predator + Luke + EU, 3x Tala

2. James - Chewie + Predator, 2x Bandits, Dagger + HLC

3. Chris - Rexlar + Outmanoeuvre + EU + HLC, 4x Academy

4. Az - Chewie + MF Title + C3P0 + Luke, 2x Tala, Tala + Assault Missile

5. Vick - Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS, Howlrunner, 3x Obsidian

6. Chu Heng - Whisper + VI + ACD + FCS, Echo + Outmanoeuvre, 2x AP

7. Matthew - Whisper + Tactician + FCS + VI + ACD, Krassis + HLC + Rebel Captive, AP

8. Justin - Echo + VI + FCS + ACD + Rebel Captive, 5x AP

We also held a shop tournament last month, where the top 2 was a double falcon and a double phantom list. I do not have any further data as I was absent from that tournament

We dont have a problem with player retention for a few reasons.

One the wife and i usually play with friends. We introduce them into the game with narrative , scenario based games. If you start off playing 'rebel vs rebel' deathmatch i think you lose something, star wars is space opera not a math competition.

two we set up a local area face book group to meet new players (mainly via word of mouth and networking) to play new people who want the same sort of game as above and keep it fresh.

three we buy something and play it through a lot before getting the next type of ship rather than 'burning out' as you buy everything at one beore you get achance to appreciate it fully.

four we just dont play people with a 'min/max list, win at all costs' attitude. If you've come round my house for a game and you're eating my tea and biscuits at my table you're less likely to pull out some cheesy characterless but efficient list.. equally I as a host am not going to invite you round to shred you... i'm going to try and be a pleasant host and good opponent.

Its not the game I think its who you play it with an how.

In contrast I wont play 'cluedo' or 'monopoly' with the wife as its simply not fun as she learnt to play both games in a household where winning was everything and is hyper competetive to the point of being an ******* when she plays those games.

They contradict each other on blocking like woah...

Top 8 from GenCon 2014

Winner - Rick Sidebotham (#1 Swiss, 23 pts, 754 MoV, flight 1): Whisper + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control Systems + Advanced Cloaking Device + Gunner; Soontir Fel + Push the Limit; Captain Yorr

2nd place - Jeff Berling (#3 Swiss, 20 pts, 802 MoV, flight 1): Chewbacca + Millennium Falcon + C-3P0 + R2-D2 + Draw Their Fire; Lando + Nien Nunb + Han Solo + Draw Their Fire

Top 4 - Paul Heaver (#2 Swiss, 21 pts, 763 MoV, flight 1, lost to Jeff): Han Solo + Luke Skywalker + Veteran Instincts + C-3P0 + Millennium Falcon + Engine Upgrade; Biggs; Tala Squadron Pilot

Top 4 - Nick Jones (lost to winner, #4 Swiss, 20 pts, 758 MoV, flight 1): Howlrunner + Push the Limit; 6x Obsidian Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - David Pontier (lost to Nick, #5 Swiss, 20 pts, 745 MoV, flight 2): Han Solo + Determination + Luke Skywalker + Millenium Falcon; Corran Horn + Push the Limit + R2-D2 + Fire Control System

Top 8 - James Elhardt (lost to 2nd place, #6 Swiss, 20 pts, 694 MoV, flight 1): Han Solo + C-3P0 + Mercenary Copilit + Veteran Instincts; 4x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - Matt Baxter (lost to Paul, #7 Swiss, 20 pts, 691 MoV, flight 1): Han Solo + C-3P0 + Mercenary Copilit + Veteran Instincts; 4x Bandit Squadron Pilot

Top 8 - Dominic Cairo (lost to winner, #8 Swiss, 18 pts, 650 MoV, flight 1): Bounty Hunter; 2x Omicron Group Pilot + Fire-Control System; Omicron Group Pilot

Top 8 lists... 2 falcons in the top 4 five falcons in the top 8... yeah....

I said MY COMMUNITY, not yours. Here's the data from the Malaysian Regionals. It is the most relevant data because this occured awhile after we have already received wave 4 and have the community stabilize.

*point to clarify, I'm from Singapore, and we have players who attend tournaments and game nights on both sides of the border. Sorta like USA /Canada if you will*

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/111344-2014-malaysia-regionals/

Data

Top 8

1. Wei Jia - Chewie + MF Title + C3P0 + Predator + Luke + EU, 3x Tala

2. James - Chewie + Predator, 2x Bandits, Dagger + HLC

3. Chris - Rexlar + Outmanoeuvre + EU + HLC, 4x Academy

4. Az - Chewie + MF Title + C3P0 + Luke, 2x Tala, Tala + Assault Missile

5. Vick - Whisper + VI + ACD + Rebel Captive + FCS, Howlrunner, 3x Obsidian

6. Chu Heng - Whisper + VI + ACD + FCS, Echo + Outmanoeuvre, 2x AP

7. Matthew - Whisper + Tactician + FCS + VI + ACD, Krassis + HLC + Rebel Captive, AP

8. Justin - Echo + VI + FCS + ACD + Rebel Captive, 5x AP

We also held a shop tournament last month, where the top 2 was a double falcon and a double phantom list. I do not have any further data as I was absent from that tournament

Three falcons in the top four... seems legit.

We dont have a problem with player retention for a few reasons.

One the wife and i usually play with friends. We introduce them into the game with narrative , scenario based games. If you start off playing 'rebel vs rebel' deathmatch i think you lose something, star wars is space opera not a math competition.

two we set up a local area face book group to meet new players (mainly via word of mouth and networking) to play new people who want the same sort of game as above and keep it fresh.

three we buy something and play it through a lot before getting the next type of ship rather than 'burning out' as you buy everything at one beore you get achance to appreciate it fully.

four we just dont play people with a 'min/max list, win at all costs' attitude. If you've come round my house for a game and you're eating my tea and biscuits at my table you're less likely to pull out some cheesy characterless but efficient list.. equally I as a host am not going to invite you round to shred you... i'm going to try and be a pleasant host and good opponent.

Its not the game I think its who you play it with an how.

In contrast I wont play 'cluedo' or 'monopoly' with the wife as its simply not fun as she learnt to play both games in a household where winning was everything and is hyper competetive to the point of being an ******* when she plays those games.

Some greats points. Particularly number 3.

I see a lot of people having a lot of fun with Dagobah Dave's Death Star trench run scenario. Limited to Ties, Xs and Ys it might help breath some life back into the group. It then might open the doors of interest away from the 100pt deathmatch and into more scenario based gaming.

Every loves that battle, everyone would love to recreate it and everyone loves playing on a gorgeous board.

Three falcons in the top four... seems legit.

So you are accusing not just me, but also the entire xwing communities for 2 different countries of flubbing the results?

Dude, seriously, the link is just there, and the Malaysian TO recorded the information. Even if you choose not to believe me for whatever reason, you can go and have a look for yourself

EDIT: I apologize for the misinterpretation

Three falcons in the top four... seems legit.

So you are accusing not just me, but also the entire xwing community for 2 different countries of flubbing the results?

Dude, seriously, the link is just there, and the Malaysian TO recorded the information.

i think he was actually agreeing with you "seems legit" is a turn of phrase

yeah it means 'how could that possibly be wrong' in a sarcastic/ironic way... it rarely means you think something is actually legitimate

yeah it means 'how could that possibly be wrong' in a sarcastic/ironic way... it rarely means you think something is actually legitimate

True. I agree with you Duraham. FatHan/Chewie is an issue.

You see i'm probably lucky in that I have friends who live nearby who play and the wife plays (has her own fleet)

But if there was a pub nearby that served rubbish beer and played really bad loud hip hop all day... i wouldnt go and drink there.

In the same way if the tournament scene is full of players playing 'optimised' lists with no character and with a bad attitude then i'd leave that scene too.

Find your local playing group on FB. We have a UK one, a nottingham one (for our city)and a Beeston one (for our subburb)... you will at least have a state group yeah?

Put a few posts on there saying 'does anyone fancy playing more 'film based' games' or ask about interest in playing a campaign or 'no unique characters or items' game etc etc... the odds are there will be others who feel like you.

Let the phantom and fat han players play the game they want to play and set up something *you* want to do... others *will* join you.

To quote waynes dream in waynes world.... 'if you build it they will come'

I see a lot of posts complaining about the current state of play, specifically Phantoms and Falcons, and a lot of posts then immediately respond to say the meta is not broken, everyone is over-reacting etc.

In the past, I think yes, people have over-reacted about ships/combos/whatever, but with this I would disagree. Named Phantoms with VI + ACD are the problem and they have had a massive impact on the game. For a casual player, it is virtually impossible to beat a Phantom list unless you've taken something to specifically counter it, e.g. a Falcon build. This is very different to previous, whereby pretty much any list could beat any other list through good flying, even between two casual players where one was trying to min/max.

I know that some person is going to reply to this post to tell me it is easy to beat a Phantom with any list and I, and all the other casual players out there, just need to practice more and be better at X-Wing. The issue is that when you're a casual player, you don't want to endlessly drill against an OP list until you beat it... you want to have fun, and having to build every list to specifically be able to counter one ship just in case it shows up is not fun.

The video everyone links to from the designers is all well and good, but what they have seen is not being reflected in the results posted above, which clearly show a rock/paper/scissors approach that is being dominated by Falcons, and is not representative of how the game feels for the casual player.

I'm not a great player, i win perhaps a third of my games.

I've played two games against a much better player using 'echo' and i've shredded echo both times by keeping my fire arcs spread out using two x wings and two y wings with ion cannons.

I dont think rob had bad dice rolls either, i just kept my ships spread out so that decloaking was always going to put him in danger and in someones arc

What's funny is that just a couple months ago and going back the assumed wisdom was to never build more than 10 pts of upgrades on a single ship, and never invest more than half your fleet pts in a single ship. The flock of sheep are convinced the opposite is now true... until the next trend.

Going in there with a 'i cant win this' attitude will probably result in you not winning it as much as bad dice rolls

The numbers do not agree with anything the two guys in the vid see.

The two guys in the vid are the lead designers of X-Wing. They commented on the top 8 you listed and also some other ships that were widely represented at lower levels of the tournament. Of note, neither the Falcon nor any other large ship build has ever before won a national tournament. So why the sudden mass hysteria just because it's popular?

Solution: ban ACD. Now phantoms have to choose between being cloaked and maneuverable and getting to shoot regularly. A phantom might cloak at the start of the game, maneuver into position, and only re-cloak once it has to disengage from a bad situation. And this indirectly deals with Falcon lists in two ways: fewer people feel obligated to take turrets for anti-phantom defense, and the lists that beat Falcons but lose to phantoms come back and make taking a Falcon list a much riskier decision.