Hello to all,

I've run Lost Knowledge yesterday and one of the issues all my three players complained about was how some powers, such as Bind or Protect\Unleash required a Force Rating of 2+ and 3+. In their understanding, since force powers also cost a ton of XP, the FR rating would be "unfair" as it would restrict some powers for upper tier only.

As I had overlooked this part of the rules, I felt a bit confused and, afterwards, decided to read the powers' descriptions.

I seem to find it rather expensive to have a power such as Unleash, since it would take some characters a second spec and up to five talents to actually get to FR 3,..

I am considering house-ruling these requisites, as I think that, since the Force Dice's results also limit the Powers' uses, it wouldn't be so bad if players got access to these powers early on. Heck, a lightsaber can deal more damage than the Unleash basic power...

What are your thoughts on this? Would it be too unbalancing? Have your players already purchased these powers meeting the requisites?

I actually think Heal/Harm has too low a FR requirement.

In terms of Houseruling away these requirements, I present to you a couple items from the show.

Yoda is the only jedi that blocks force lightning with his hand (which is an example of protect). Palpatine and Dooku are the only ones to use lightning (unleash). What this means is that there is some barrier to entry for these powers. Certainly more characters have FR's in excess of 3, but they haven't taken the time to really develop their skills in those powers, probably because they require so much investment.

even gripping people is somethign that doesn't come easy. it takes some development of skill. Take Luke as an example. When training with Yoda, he learns enhance and move, forsee (and probably sense), all powers requiring 1+. When he gains in power by RotJ, he has grown to embrace Bind.

A chief complaint from the d20 editions of the game is that 1st level characters could toss around force lightning without much investment of time or character. which does not mesh with what we see in the films.

In balance terms, it probably won't hurt your games much at all. But I feel it makes the skills in question... less special... and may deny players the sense of accomplishment with achieving those powers through play which with requisites like those may have been part of the idea.

EDIT: we began with Knight level players to do more stress testing on the upper level powers and aspects of the game. I have a player with Bind, a player with unleash, and a player with heal/harm. The requisites don't seem to play in much, as most players are interested in reaching FR 2 & 3 quite quickly anyways, even for the character with move and the one with misdirect.

I think it's fitting that most of those powers that require a Force Rating higher than 1 have such a requirement.

After all, these aren't the basic effects that any Force user can learn.

That being said, I think Heal/Harm should require a Force Rating of 2, and Bind be reduced to Force Rating 1. But powers like Battle Meditation and Protect/Unleash are advanced Force abilities that only a Force user of sufficient strength is going to be able to utilize.

Also remember that a character with Force Rating 1 is considered "barely competent" in terms of being a Force user. The EotE Beta had a chart indicating where a person ranked in terms of their prowess as a Force user. It's not been reprinted, but here's the rough breakdown:

FR 1 - Sensitive; ex: Jedi initiate

FR 2 - Tenuous; ex: a self-taught Exile

FR 3 - Moderate; ex: a young Jedi Knight

FR 4 - Strong; ex: a well-trained Jedi Knight

FR 5 - Potent; ex; a veteran Jedi Knight

FR 6 - Formidable; ex: Jedi Master/Sith Lord

FR 7 - Legendary; most heroic of Jedi or villanious of Sith Lords

Most PCs in Force and Destiny aren't likely to get far above FR 4/Strong, and that's only after a whole lot of XP spent buying additional specializations to boost up their Force Rating. So your PCs aren't going to be capable of using those advanced powers unless they're a dedicated Force user (such as the Seer and Sage, who both offer two ranks of the Force Rating talent, making it possible to reach FR 3 from just one spec).

What are your thoughts on this? Would it be too unbalancing? Have your players already purchased these powers meeting the requisites?

But I agree. Those limits are out (in my game).

I think it's fitting that most of those powers that require a Force Rating higher than 1 have such a requirement.

After all, these aren't the basic effects that any Force user can learn.

That being said, I think Heal/Harm should require a Force Rating of 2, and Bind be reduced to Force Rating 1. But powers like Battle Meditation and Protect/Unleash are advanced Force abilities that only a Force user of sufficient strength is going to be able to utilize.

Agreed with most all of this, but I like Bind at 2. It's potent enough that I wouldn't want a FR 1 initiate throwing that around -- wouldn't seem balanced or fitting.

I don't think the power requirements should be reduced, I might even argue for an increase...

As for this:

In their understanding, since force powers also cost a ton of XP, the FR rating would be "unfair" as it would restrict some powers for upper tier only.

That's one of the things I like about this game. Becoming a talented Force user takes a lot of time and investment... as it should . Nobody is slinging around lightning fresh out of the gate. If you wanted a set of lightning capable players, you might consider granting enough post-chargen XP to have a much more experienced set of characters (300XP should do it).

I'm against removing the limits. Chiefly because I see Force Lightning / deflecting it as the preserve of high ranking Jedi. Dooku does it, Palpatine does it, Yoda does it. That's very nearly it, barring a modicum of lightsabre assisted absorbtion by Windu. Dooku even remarks when Yoda contains his lightning that they wont be able to settle the matter through their "mastery of the Force". I feel some powers belong only to the few.

Also, they can actually be quite nasty (Ensnare on lightning is downright horrible).

Yoda is the only jedi that blocks force lightning with his hand (which is an example of protect).

Isn't there one time where Dooku deflected his own lighting (absorbed/redirected by Yoda) with his hand? It deflects up into a ceiling?

Yep. I realized it afterward, but never went back and edited it. touché good sir.

I also have player that is complaining about the costs. I wasn't able to use the encounter yet, but I have an encounter set up to show the lethality and power of one of the powers in question. The encounter is set up with a dark force user with Force is my ally, Bind and Move. The opening salvo is: Bind as the character closes, activate Ally then Move to fling the character out to long range. then as the character begins closing again with his saber, Bind, then Ally then fling out to long range. Even if I don't use the Hurl (10 wounds) option, the Bind will wear them out. Defiantly worth the extra XP to be able to do things like this.

The opening salvo is: Bind as the character closes, activate Ally then Move to fling the character out to long range...

Just MHO, but I wouldn't use (as a GM) or allow this ability (by the PCs) with Move. Far too potent, and never happens in canon.

An argument could be made that Dooku does this very thing in Revenge. I'm not saying it is, but the argument could be made.

When? I don't think the bridge of the ship was big enough for Long range. Medium at best...

Just MHO, but I wouldn't use (as a GM) or allow this ability (by the PCs) with Move. Far too potent, and never happens in canon.

Just MHO, but I wouldn't use (as a GM) or allow this ability (by the PCs) with Move. Far too potent, and never happens in canon.

That and since The Force Is My Ally is a once per Encounter Talent... it would feel too cheaty for the Adversary to be "breaking the rules" in a showy way like this.

It's once per session .

It's once per session .

I was "away from book" and trusting on my memory.

whafrog-

Sorry, I wasn't focused on the range, but the action. Dooku kicks annikin (a narrative description) grips obi wan and moves him with the control upgrade over the railing. he then uses the maneuver talent (ally, right?) and throws the railing on Obiwan before annikin can react (before his turn comes up).

I'm not saying it's perfect, but the argument could be made. Besides, that is one massively powerful nemesis vs, two of the most powerful characters in the story. Probably not the same as these relatively starting characters and their competition.

oops, hadn't noticed the 1/session. Also Ventress does it in the clone wars cartoon. Its where I got the idea from. Not the repetition, but the series of attacks.