So, it seems that pretty much everyone's agreed that missiles and torpedoes in general are overpriced for what they offer, and that there's usually better alternatives out there (including in many cases, the ship's primary weapon).

So here's a suggestion - why not make some of the available missiles/torpedo options effective at longer ranges? And specifically, allow them to out-range a ship's primary weapons?

Traditionally (in the X-Wing games series) missiles and torpedoes were used to inflict damage from long range against heavily defended but slow moving targets - freighters, capital ships, transports,facilities and the like:

....however they were much less effective in close range dogfights, where nimble ships were able to avoid them by taking evasive action.

Making - for example - Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles and Homing Missiles usable up to range 5 could add a new layer of tactics in the game, especially with regards to ship deployment, action passing and action retention - Target Locks would still need to be acquired in order to fire, so the user would need some degree of action synergy, be it an equivalent to ST-321, Dutch, Jendon, Lando etc.

Any thoughts on the idea? Suggestions? Improvements? etc

It would be interesting, and would add a bit of realism to the game. Modern aircraft have to get up close and personal in order to use their machine guns, but their missiles can hit targets that are beyond visual range. If you don't get the defensive range bonus because they're secondary weapons, it's possible that missiles could become too powerful. Although, they would certainly be worth the cost if they were.

Perhaps keep torpedoes capped at Range 3, but extend missiles out to Range 5. That would balance it out in case it was too powerful.

Sounds cool, but would have to try it for balance. Also weird because you can only take a TL at Range 3 anyway.

It would be interesting, and would add a bit of realism to the game. Modern aircraft have to get u close and personal in order to use their machine guns, but their missiles can hit targets that are beyond visual range. If you don't get the defensive range bonus because they're secondary weapons, it's possible that missiles could become too powerful. Although, they would certainly be worth the cost if they were.

It would be a bit odd to make work - ignoring the defensive bonus for range 4-5 would be understandable in part because they're one-shot weapons (and still not terribly effective against high agility ships due to the need to spend the Target Lock) and in part because thematically the missiles and torpedoes themselves have limited tracking abilities. Being able to fire them in the first place - that would be a different matter.

Who would benefit? Low primary value ships like Y-Wings and Bombers would have a field day - provided they had a method of reliably obtaining target locks at long range. Any ship with a missile or torpedo slot and access to EPT's (Deadeye would be phenomenal). So, yeah, Green Squadron A-Wings, and named TIE Advanced would get a boost as well.

Who would suffer? Low agility ships, like Shuttles, Decimators, YT's, Y-Wings, B-Wings. They could find themselves on the end of a long-range pounding. Also Huge ships of any variety. Again, thematically sound and interesting.

Yeah, obtaining the Target Locks to use them at long range in the first place would be the tricky part. It would require action passing shenanigans of synergy of some variety. Certainly it would require a degree of squad planning and forethought to make the most of.

Dog fighting game.

Range 5 proton rockets would be completely broken.

Yes. Yes it is.

Range 5 proton rockets would be completely broken.

Hence why (like Cluster Missiles, Flechette Torpedoes, Ion Pulse Missiles and APT's) they weren't suggested. Not all missiles or torpedoes would be usable at long range- we'd still have variations!

I like the concept of the range 5 ordinance attacks, but yeah... How do we adjust the TL rules for standard play. Bring out some kind of C&C ship - but that would really negate Jendon/ST-321 combo. Or maybe we don't as you can do it in Epic right now with a Targeting Coordinator, a Sensor Team and the Corvette - so there's your C&C setup. Just add an "Improved Munitions" card that allows Homing Missiles, Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes shoot out to Range 5 then.

I like the concept of the range 5 ordinance attacks, but yeah... How do we adjust the TL rules for standard play. Bring out some kind of C&C ship - but that would really negate Jendon/ST-321 combo. Or maybe we don't as you can do it in Epic right now with a Targeting Coordinator, a Sensor Team and the Corvette - so there's your C&C setup. Just add an "Improved Munitions" card that allows Homing Missiles, Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes shoot out to Range 5 then.

Exactly - on paper it would be a boost to ordnance, but it would require some thought to use effectively.

Staggering waves of attack might help - take a Dutch/Horton/Gold Y-Wing list for example. All three armed with Protons, Horton has R2-D6/Deadeye. Dutch is at range 3, Gold range 4, Horton range 5. All three could conceivably deploy their torps that round.

- - - - - D - - - - -

G - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - H

Or how about this for a Bomber Alpha Strike?

Gamma (w/Flechette) x 2, Jonus (w/Deadeye, Proton), Rhymer (w/Deadeye, Proton)

G - - - - - G

- - - - J - - - - R

Gammas TL at range 3, Jonus/Rhymer focus at Range 4. All four fire off their torps, with benefit of Jonus rerolls. Wouldn't work every time of course - just when Gammas get PS advantage.

Like I said, it would need thought, but it would certainly make ordnance a bit more interesting...

No.

Reducing their cost from 4 to 3 should be sufficient. APTs reduced from 6 to 4.5.

No.

Reducing their cost from 4 to 3 should be sufficient. APTs reduced from 6 to 4.5.

I think torpedoes should be like, 2 attack range 3-5. If it hits, replace all damage done with 2 hits and 2 crits (similar to ion cannon in mechanics). This represents the easy ability to dodge or shoot down torpedoes for ships with even a little agility, the range they're known for, and the huge punch they pack if they actually do manage to hit.

No.

You're no fun.

Also, points values of ".5" only exist in your head.

How about this:

Modification:

Long Range Targeting Computer

3 Pts

Add +1 range to target lock, Missiles and Torpedoes

Maybe to balance it you get 1 red die at range 4 and 2 at range 5 plus a stress with any hit or crit stopping the missile.

So I can kill someone at a range and they never get a chance to even fire back because of range? Let's just say NO.

Think about it 6 Headhunter"s with Assault Missiles and Munition Failsafe. All you ever do is set your dial to 1 straight and keep focus firing on one target until it is dead

Rather then extending the projectile range beyond three I feel it would be better to have ships that effects to go along with them. Major Rhymer for Bombers and the upcoming aces Nera Dantels have rather interesting skills so something along the lines of:

Unique Tie Bomber

Pilot Skill 5

(Proton Torpedeos) and (Missiles) cost 1 less point during Setup on this ship (To a minimum of 1)

Unique B Wing

Pilot Skill 5

When Attacking with a (Proton Torpedo) Role a Defense Die on a (Evade) Roll do not discard it.

So I can kill someone at a range and they never get a chance to even fire back because of range? Let's just say NO.

Think about it 6 Headhunter"s with Assault Missiles and Munition Failsafe. All you ever do is set your dial to 1 straight and keep focus firing on one target until it is dead

The suggestion was for Homing Missiles, Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes. That's it. And I suggested it be a Modification (without fully spelling it out, granted) for a variant of a long-range targeting option, which would rule out Munitions Failsafe.

No.

You're no fun.

Also, points values of ".5" only exist in your head.

And for my House Rules.

Edit: also to point out, none of the suggestions in this thread exist outside of someone's head, so I'm on equal footing at least!

And for my House Rules.

Edit: also to point out, none of the suggestions in this thread exist outside of someone's head, so I'm on equal footing at least!

This is true. But the subject of this thread isn't about adjusting points values to make ordnance more efficient, it's about adjusting the mechanics of ordnance to fundamentally alter it's role in-game and differentiate it from primary weapons.

It's the difference between changing a value and creating a niche.

So I can kill someone at a range and they never get a chance to even fire back because of range? Let's just say NO.

Think about it 6 Headhunter"s with Assault Missiles and Munition Failsafe. All you ever do is set your dial to 1 straight and keep focus firing on one target until it is dead

The suggestion was for Homing Missiles, Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes. That's it. And I suggested it be a Modification (without fully spelling it out, granted) for a variant of a long-range targeting option, which would rule out Munitions Failsafe.

Rather than spelling out the specific weapons, which boxes you in vs future upgrades, noting the range might be sufficient. And indicate a warhead size penalty for the presumed increased fuel load...

Long Range Ordnance

Modification

Replace range '3' restriction on missiles and torpedoes with '5'. After all results are modified by attacker and defender, reduce all remaining 'suffers damage' effects of the weapon by '1'.

Cost: 1

OK, so let's go with the range 5 idea. Do you extend Target Lock range to 5 as well then?

New meaning to alpha strike!

Rather than spelling out the specific weapons, which boxes you in vs future upgrades, noting the range might be sufficient. And indicate a warhead size penalty for the presumed increased fuel load...

Long Range Ordnance

Modification

Replace range '3' restriction on missiles and torpedoes with '5'. After all results are modified by attacker and defender, reduce all remaining 'suffers damage' effects of the weapon by '1'.

Cost: 1

I do like the idea, however I think modifying ALL ordnance in such a manner might be a bit too much - a lot of the more recent ordnance releases have been given reduced costings, or have additional effects other than damage - i.e. stress/ion/splash damage. Ionising a ship from range 5 would be pretty crazy.

Rather than spelling out the specific weapons, which boxes you in vs future upgrades, noting the range might be sufficient. And indicate a warhead size penalty for the presumed increased fuel load...

Long Range Ordnance

Modification

Replace range '3' restriction on missiles and torpedoes with '5'. After all results are modified by attacker and defender, reduce all remaining 'suffers damage' effects of the weapon by '1'.

Cost: 1

I do like the idea, however I think modifying ALL ordnance in such a manner might be a bit too much - a lot of the more recent ordnance releases have been given reduced costings, or have additional effects other than damage - i.e. stress/ion/splash damage. Ionising a ship from range 5 would be pretty crazy.

Sure, but the 'reduce suffers damage' component of that would mean that, yeah, while you are (maybe) ionizing them at range 5...they take no damage from that. Just the ion effects. And at range 5...who cares? It's not like your forces are going to be in position to make a brilliant off-arc attack on them if you are opening fire at range 5...

I've long thought that adding some long range ordnance options would be nice but the question is balancing them. With the CR-90 we do finally get some rules for attacks at R4 and R5. I may need to review but at R4 don't targets get another +1 defense and that increases to +2 at R5? Ok, secondary attack ignore those modifications but then you look at the CR-90's secondary weapons and they let those long range targets double up on agility; great for the nimble ships but not as great for something with 1 or 0 agility but it does give us a place to work from.

What is the problem is the question. When was the last time you saw missiles or torps used in a list. this last week-end we played a tournament, had 14 players used 130 points. No one had missiles or torps. the main problem is you have a 1 shot weapon that is very expensive and really has to do the job. Longer range is an idea. Maybe let them shoot to 4 or 5, but deduct one point of attack strength for each additional range band. Another possible solution would be to give missiles and torps a reload or second shop capability. Say have an upgrade for 1 or 2 points that would let you fire the missile or torp weapon a second time on a later turn.