I'm sorry, but Large Base and Arc Dodger are two words that don't go together. A large base cannot consistently get out of arcs.

Have you ever actually flown against a well flown Falcon with Engine upgrade? trying to keep 5 ties on target is nearly impossible.

Additionally to all those saying "if you block then you get 5 focused shots" well no you get 4 because the blockers not shooting, once you loose a ship if you intend to block you only get 3 ships to shoot, again assuming they all actually have arc.

Having flown Whisper + Mini Swarm on the weekend at a tournament my only loss was to a well flown falcon, with 3 Zs flying interference there was no way I was ever going to block it. Boost on a large base ship with the 1 turn on its dial most certainly mean it can arc dodge.

To me, an arc dodger is able to get out of all arcs relatively easily. It can get out of arcs, sure. But all ships can. It cannot slip in and out of arcs like Interceptors or Phantoms, though.

To me, an arc dodger is able to get out of all arcs relatively easily. It can get out of arcs, sure. But all ships can. It cannot slip in and out of arcs like Interceptors or Phantoms, though.

Well yes in the truest sense of the word you are correct but in this particular scenario (and to be quite frank, the most likely scenario in many real life tournament games compared to hypothetical scenarios) you only need to dodge 1-2 of the 5 ties for it to actually have a significant impact in terms of shots for and against.

Judging by the vast number of pages/threads about Faclons there seem a lot of people thinking there is something not quite right with it.Rhetorics (of both sides) aside.

Ok, I'll admit, I think there's one thing irritatingly wrong about the Falcon. Ready?

I think its 1 hard maneuver should be stressful. Why? Because I've played quite a few games where you get to fly one, and buddy, that is not easy to do. It usually involves breaking as hard as possible, then using some function to roll the craft onto its side, then pulling up on the control stick. Generally, we consider red/stressful maneuvers/actions to be something so involving that the pilot has no time/attention available to devote to anything else.

But really, that's it. All other things considered it's a fine ship, but not broken in any way. It offers fun and interesting counterplay challenges, and as far as my play experience has gone, it's one of the easiest rebel ships to hit with a Proton Bomb (hit accuracy = 100%).

Have you ever actually flown against a well flown Falcon with Engine upgrade?

Sure but then you can't use the evade action.

Additionally to all those saying "if you block then you get 5 focused shots" well no you get 4 because the blockers not shooting, once you loose a ship if you intend to block you only get 3 ships to shoot, again assuming they all actually have arc.

you only need to dodge 1-2 of the 5 ties for it to actually have a significant impact in terms of shots for and against.

Given avg damage values, you'd have to dodge 2 ties a turn, otherwise the Falcon is dead. If you're using EU to help Dodge, you're losing one evade per turn. That means the ties are doing on avg 4 damage for the first 2 rounds and 3 the next 2 which kills the Falcon.

Sorry for the bad English, but I have to say it.

I know fat Han is the scapegoat this days.

I think the real problem is the phantom, fat Han is just the answer to the phantom.

There are a lot of natural counters out there, which can stop Han.

A well flown TIE swarm for example, oh wait, it'll be reaped by the phantom

A well flown XXBB or XXXX list will eat the falcon, oh wait those lists get punished by the phantom.

In my opinion the phantom is the real problem, not because it has four attack die but it is crazy maneuverability.

Natural counter to this is fat Han.

I hate the phantom because we won't see a lot of ships again in competitive play.

Most of the non-turret ships get raped by whisper, and that is very sad.

The Advanced is absolutely dead, HWK and Y-Wing are nearly dead, A-Wing is hard to play, TIE Bomber is hard to play, Shuttle is hard to play, Firespray get smoked by the phantom.

A perfectly flown phantom can easily kill 2 - 3 other small ships from the list above.

So know we have the option, to get raped by the phantom, or play Han and that's it.

I say not, you can't win with an other list than super Han, but I say you'll have a very hard time against whisper.

Generally I think a new wave should offer more options to the players and not limit the options like W4 did.

Just my two cents.

[tube]

Most of the non-turret ships [lose badly to] whisper, and that is very sad.

The Advanced is absolutely dead, HWK and Y-Wing are nearly dead, A-Wing is hard to play, TIE Bomber is hard to play, Shuttle is hard to play, Firespray get smoked by the phantom.

The HWK and Y-wing can carry turrets; why aren't they dangerous to a Phantom? And I've flown the Firespray successfully against Phantoms several times.

I'm more willing to believe the Phantom is the problem then that C-3PO has single-handedly unbalanced the game, but I still don't completely buy it. If it were a Rock-Paper-Scissors situation, where the Phantom is difficult to beat and has just a single hard counter, then where are the counters to Han that we all know exist? Because while Falcons are keeping the Phantom mostly suppressed, there's an opportunity to be exploited, and no one is doing it.

Most of the non-turret ships [lose badly to] whisper, and that is very sad.

The Advanced is absolutely dead, HWK and Y-Wing are nearly dead, A-Wing is hard to play, TIE Bomber is hard to play, Shuttle is hard to play, Firespray get smoked by the phantom.

The HWK and Y-wing can carry turrets; why aren't they dangerous to a Phantom? And I've flown the Firespray successfully against Phantoms several times.

I'm more willing to believe the Phantom is the problem then that C-3PO has single-handedly unbalanced the game, but I still don't completely buy it. If it were a Rock-Paper-Scissors situation, where the Phantom is difficult to beat and has just a single hard counter, then where are the counters to Han that we all know exist? Because while Falcons are keeping the Phantom mostly suppressed, there's an opportunity to be exploited, and no one is doing it.

Simply because the ICT has R2 only. Take a good look at the space, thats 50% of the total firing area: R3 band = R2 and R1 completely.

That's a lot of space for a Phantom to reside.

The Phantom is not nearly as hard to beat flying or list building than it is to beat a Falcon. Any 3 ship build cannot reliably go up against a Falcon. Nor most 4 ship builds (but those tend to die to Phantoms too).

Phantoms only require you have something that is PS9 with some movement. OR something with higher PS on the Rebel side: ex

Wedge naked

Wedge VI

Wedge R7-T1

Wedge EU

Wes VI

Expert Handling

Corran

even Airen

Nera

Luke

and soon

All the darn YT24s.

You really aren't trying hard enough for the Phantom.

Sorry for the bad English, but I have to say it.

I know fat Han is the scapegoat this days.

I think the real problem is the phantom, fat Han is just the answer to the phantom.

There are a lot of natural counters out there, which can stop Han.

A well flown TIE swarm for example, oh wait, it'll be reaped by the phantom

A well flown XXBB or XXXX list will eat the falcon, oh wait those lists get punished by the phantom.

In my opinion the phantom is the real problem, not because it has four attack die but it is crazy maneuverability.

Natural counter to this is fat Han.

I hate the phantom because we won't see a lot of ships again in competitive play.

Most of the non-turret ships get raped by whisper, and that is very sad.

The Advanced is absolutely dead, HWK and Y-Wing are nearly dead, A-Wing is hard to play, TIE Bomber is hard to play, Shuttle is hard to play, Firespray get smoked by the phantom.

A perfectly flown phantom can easily kill 2 - 3 other small ships from the list above.

So know we have the option, to get raped by the phantom, or play Han and that's it.

I say not, you can't win with an other list than super Han, but I say you'll have a very hard time against whisper.

Generally I think a new wave should offer more options to the players and not limit the options like W4 did.

Just my two cents.

Honestly, I think you're mostly wrong about the Phantoms being the problem.

However, I will say this: you are correct in your reasoning for why Falcons are popping up so much, and it is in response to the Phantom.

The problem is, it's not that nothing can counter a Phantom, or do well against one, the problem is that for many people, too many people, simply flying Han instead of actually buckling down and changing their tactics is much easier. I've killed well flown Phantoms with PS 2 Bombers, I've killed them with PS 1 Defenders, I've killed them with Interceptors ranging between The Dreaded Soontir Fel to Carnor Jax to a simple RGP with Outmaneuver. I've even killed them with Predator Black Squadrons (on several occasions).

It's not that Han is the only way to deal with them, he's not even the best way. He's just the most brainless way. Not saying he can fly brainlessly and win, I know it takes skill. A well flown Phantom can reasonably guess where you'll be, and chip away at you until you're close to dead then jump into range 1 for the kill shot. Phantoms, especially Whisper, have such a huge Range 3 advantage against even the topmost Falcons it's not even funny. It's just that a PS 11 turret with some type of gunner and action economy requires the least bit of squad building thought, and flying it requires next to no deviation from the way you'd fly it against any of the other speedy things. But the rest of the ships may require a drastic shift in tactics, and it seems the most vocal and ardent opponents to Phantoms just aren't willing to do the legwork. The ones that are willing to do it, you'll notice, aren't filling up pages of complaints against Phantoms… or Fat Hans, or some other Element X (whatever that element may be from wave to wave).

Really, when you think about it, the designers said very (very) early on that this wave above all others would necessitate a shift in strategy. It still surprises me to see just how much that point gets looked over.

Any 3 ship build cannot reliably go up against a Falcon. Nor most 4 ship builds (but those tend to die to Phantoms too).

Uhhh... Any decent 4 ship build, and many 3 ship builds, when flown proficiently, can go toe to toe against Falcon builds.

The TIE phantom's only dangerous if you completely ignore its existence or if you refuse to break formation. If you're addicted to Biggs or Howlrunner then the phantom will reliably take you down, as it was meant to. It was put in the game to discourage rigid (and kinda dull) block formation flying and mass use of generics: you see it on the other side of the table and you've gotta split up. If you keep formation and give it a huge amount of space to hide then it'll get there.

Plus the existence of the phantom encourages the use of stress mechanics, high attack values that can punch through that agility: in many ways it encourages you to diversify: it weakens some options but those were the options that were choking out the rest by virtue of being better.

Any 3 ship build cannot reliably go up against a Falcon. Nor most 4 ship builds (but those tend to die to Phantoms too).

Uhhh... Any decent 4 ship build, and many 3 ship builds, when flown proficiently, can go toe to toe against Falcon builds.

Depends on the list mostly. Regular 3 rebel builds don't have that luxury, their movements are quite predictable to buy you enough time with the Z's so the falcon doesn't get the focused, Corran R2D2 with FCS is the only ship that can put a dent on it. Imperial ones yes, Jonus brothers for example is pretty good if you fly it well against Fat Solo builds.

And VanorDM, what is more useful, one evade, or get shot only by half the Ties ?

Can't wait for Wave 5. Then we will have endless 360° ships battling it out in a boring flyaround... The falcon was bad enough, why add more 360° turrets... 360° shooting is the cryptonite to this awesome tactical game. *very very sad panda*. (Ion turret doesn't count because it's only range 2 and thus can be countered with good flying)

PS: Tactician crew card is extremely underrated. 1-2 of those can shutdown any big threat. It can force a green maneuver or disable an action (evade). And for only 2 points a piece it's a bargain.

Can't wait for Wave 5. Then we will have endless 360° ships battling it out in a boring flyaround... The falcon was bad enough, why add more 360° turrets... 360° shooting is the cryptonite to this awesome tactical game. *very very sad panda*. (Ion turret doesn't count because it's only range 2 and thus can be countered with good flying)

PS: Tactician crew card is extremely underrated. 1-2 of those can shutdown any big threat. It can force a green maneuver or disable an action (evade). And for only 2 points a piece it's a bargain.

At R2 only in your arc. Have you played it? I have. Its harder to get right than you think.

--

Yeah. I think YT24 Dash turret HLc is gonna be even more frustrating. Now THAT will likely 1 shot Ties each turn. Rarely EVER be blocked by asteroids and probably sits pretty hard to kill.

Most of the non-turret ships [lose badly to] whisper, and that is very sad.

The Advanced is absolutely dead, HWK and Y-Wing are nearly dead, A-Wing is hard to play, TIE Bomber is hard to play, Shuttle is hard to play, Firespray get smoked by the phantom.

The HWK and Y-wing can carry turrets; why aren't they dangerous to a Phantom? And I've flown the Firespray successfully against Phantoms several times.

I'm more willing to believe the Phantom is the problem then that C-3PO has single-handedly unbalanced the game, but I still don't completely buy it. If it were a Rock-Paper-Scissors situation, where the Phantom is difficult to beat and has just a single hard counter, then where are the counters to Han that we all know exist? Because while Falcons are keeping the Phantom mostly suppressed, there's an opportunity to be exploited, and no one is doing it.

The phantom has cloaked 4 defense die and even if you hit you'll deal 1 damage with an ion turret. That isn't enough while there are lot of TIE-Fighter around it. The Blaster Turret can theoretical deal 3 damage but a combo to make use of this is very expensive.

Sure there are builds out there to kill those lists, featuring Wedge, Wes or other high PS ships.

The trick is to win against both lists, fat Han and common Whisper, without using Han or Whisper yourself.

I can't see a Strategie wich can do that, without very hot dice.

Most of the non-turret ships [lose badly to] whisper, and that is very sad.

The Advanced is absolutely dead, HWK and Y-Wing are nearly dead, A-Wing is hard to play, TIE Bomber is hard to play, Shuttle is hard to play, Firespray get smoked by the phantom.

The HWK and Y-wing can carry turrets; why aren't they dangerous to a Phantom? And I've flown the Firespray successfully against Phantoms several times.

I'm more willing to believe the Phantom is the problem then that C-3PO has single-handedly unbalanced the game, but I still don't completely buy it. If it were a Rock-Paper-Scissors situation, where the Phantom is difficult to beat and has just a single hard counter, then where are the counters to Han that we all know exist? Because while Falcons are keeping the Phantom mostly suppressed, there's an opportunity to be exploited, and no one is doing it.

The phantom has cloaked 4 defense die and even if you hit you'll deal 1 damage with an ion turret. That isn't enough while there are lot of TIE-Fighter around it. The Blaster Turret can theoretical deal 3 damage but a combo to make use of this is very expensive.

Sure there are builds out there to kill those lists, featuring Wedge, Wes or other high PS ships.

The trick is to win against both lists, fat Han and common Whisper, without using Han or Whisper yourself.

I can't see a Strategie wich can do that, without very hot dice.

Btw I didn't try it, but I fear rebel aces will bring us more fat Han pain.

Han Solo 46

Gunner 5

MF 1

EU 4

C-3PO

2x

Green Squadron Pilot 19

C. Refit -2

PTL 3