X-wing Minatures is not Chess.

It has dice in it.

As for Super Falcons it is sort of mid meta just like how the hunter class is for Hearthstone. A bunch of new pieces are added to the game making everyone re-figure out the meta game. So everyone falls back to a strong easy to play but powerful builds such as Hunter class or in the case of X-wing the Super Falcon.

However when you reach the top tier you don't find the Falcon or the Hunter anywhere as those people already figured out how to beat it and are now working against higher tier metas such as Buzzsaw shuttle or Tie Swarm.

So Falcon is more of a FOO strategy. To learn more about FOO watch this.

I've actually seen this before. Unfortunately, Fat Han is just a FOO strategy. Don't believe me? Check top 8 at GenCon. Many of the indisputable best players were using it (Paul Heaver had a Fan Han). In fact, the second place player had 2 falcons!

You actually just made the point that Falcons, especially Fat Falcons, are FOO strategies and other builds do not over enough power to skill ratio to convince people to try an alternative strategy (read: build).

There were more shuttles than falcons.

So are we in agreement that unique YT-1300 are The noob tube of Star Wars and leave it at that. The Super Falcon did not win Gen Con after all.

the dual falcon list didnt win because the player allowed his opponent to take back his moves

also, during the swiss rounds, the falcon users had better overall points than the other lists.

There were more of them.

Plus the Falcon has an amazing advantage when it comes to Margin of Victory and timed games that has nothing to do with combat balance: if you don't kill it, if you leave it on one hit point, all 50 points of it weren't killed. Compared to the equivalent of smaller ships, that can make the difference between a win and a loss in timed games.

the great solution could be reducing 360 turret range to 1-2

like ion and blaster turret

the great solution could be reducing 360 turret range to 1-2

like ion and blaster turret

the best solution would be just to play the game as the designers intended

Ow... stop shouting

So you contend that designers are infalible, have never made mistakes, and that games cannot be nudged in the direction of better balance by the army of enthusiasts who playtest a rule set to destruction?

Explain the TIE Advanced and I'll cede the point.

So you contend that designers are infalible, have never made mistakes, and that games cannot be nudged in the direction of better balance by the army of enthusiasts who playtest a rule set to destruction?

Explain the TIE Advanced and I'll cede the point.

No, I contend that in order for a solution to be required in the first place there needs to be agreement that there is an actual problem which needs to be addressed.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the TIE Advanced is underwhelming; there is NO such consensus that there is a problem with the Falcon, nor is there ever likely to be.

The Falcon is working as intended; deal with it.

Pretty much everyone agrees that the TIE Advanced is underwhelming; there is NO such consensus that there is a problem with the Falcon, nor is there ever likely to be.

The Falcon is working as intended; deal with it.

There is a difference, you're right.

But the difference is that because TAdv is underwhelming it isn't being defended by a bunch of powergamers who want to maintain the status quo....

If it were causing problems I suspect two armed camps would form pretty quickly.

the dual falcon list didnt win because the player allowed his opponent to take back his moves

I think this really misrepresents what occurred (no "moves" were taken back), and had nothing to do with which list was more powerful. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Had the falcon player exercised his right to prevent a missed opportunity (and as I understand it, it was just one), he would have gained an advantage due to player error and not because his list was better.

There is a difference, you're right.

But the difference is that because TAdv is underwhelming it isn't being defended by a bunch of powergamers who want to maintain the status quo....

If it were causing problems I suspect two armed camps would form pretty quickly.

Oh, I see. So now you're trying to stereotype everyone who hasn't got a problem with the Falcon and is fine with it's current role in the game as "a bunch of powergamers"?

Pretty much everyone agrees that the TIE Advanced is underwhelming; there is NO such consensus that there is a problem with the Falcon, nor is there ever likely to be.

The Falcon is working as intended; deal with it.

There is a difference, you're right.

But the difference is that because TAdv is underwhelming it isn't being defended by a bunch of powergamers who want to maintain the status quo....

If it were causing problems I suspect two armed camps would form pretty quickly.

I'm not a powergamer, I almost never fly the Falcon, my favorite ships are the Interceptors and other crafts that rely more on maneuver than sheer power, and I don't have a problem with it.

I agree that the Falcon doesn't need a fix and some people are overreacting because the ship is taking them outside their comfort zone.

the great solution could be reducing 360 turret range to 1-2

like ion and blaster turret

the best solution would be just to play the game as the designers intended

i concur

Eh, count me in the "Falcon and Phantom are annoying" camp.

I've disliked turrets for a while, although felt they were okay on the Y wing due to the ships massive shortcomings.

But the Falcon just sucks away a lot of the fun. Huge hitpoints, huge attack, it basically negates the enemy's flying ability... no thanks.

And the Phantom, now that I've played against it a few times, is equally annoying. Any ship that can singlehandedly make a huge number of ships almost worthless (basically any ship that is a lower pilot skill) isn't a wonderfully-designed ship.

Give me A-Wings, B-Wings, X-Wings, Y-Wings, E-Wings, and Hwks, or TIEs, Bombers, Interceptors, Defenders, Shuttles, and yes, even Bounty Hunters. They make the dogfight and skill of the game a lot more fun. I am currently trying to figure out how to make a list that can be anti-Phantom and not anti-Phantom, and not include the Falcon... it isn't easy:(

I think some folks overestimate the reach of this forum. The majority of x-wing players don't read it.

Oh, and it doesn't matter if a Falcon won a tournament or came in second. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

When the same topic comes up time and time again it suggests that at least some people percieve a problem.

No-one complains about TIE fighters, no-one complains about B-wings, no-one complains about Firesprays or Shuttles. They're all great ships, but they can be dealt with by a competant player.

Even the Phantom, depspite the vast volumes of nerd-rage that echoed around the internet for so many pain-filled weeks, is starting to become an accepted part of the scenery.

But the YT debate keeps cropping up, the Fat Han builds keep dominating big tournaments, and the same group of non-powergamers who don't even play with it keep turning up to defend it.

I don't even think the Falcon needs a fix, as I actually think the main cause of this is C3PO rather than the Falcon - but it amounts to the same thing.

When the same topic comes up time and time again it suggests that at least some people percieve a problem.

It comes up time and time again because the same posters post it, time and time again (usually after their last effort was locked or dropped off the board.).

I don't even think the Falcon needs a fix, as I actually think the main cause of this is C3PO rather than the Falcon - but it amounts to the same thing.

If you think that a 3 point card that can potentially allow you to receive 1 evade result more than you normally would, once per combat phase is a massive problem in need of a "fix", then God only knows what you must think of Recon Specialist...

You cannot seriously compare the two, one requires an action (a specific action - which locks you into taking just that) and the other one is a passive effect which requires no skill to use.

You see i misread the c3po card when i first got it.

I thought you had to guess a 'positive' number of evades, not just say 'zero evades' in which case you either got two or nothing so it seemed more of a chance

when i found out that you can guess 'zero' that meant that you were getting one if you were right and one if you were wrong just seemed a bit lame.. hence i rarely put him on a falcon, as while i know its a good effect it just seems beardy to me.

When the same topic comes up time and time again it suggests that at least some people percieve a problem.

No-one complains about TIE fighters, no-one complains about B-wings, no-one complains about Firesprays or Shuttles. They're all great ships, but they can be dealt with by a competant player.

Even the Phantom, depspite the vast volumes of nerd-rage that echoed around the internet for so many pain-filled weeks, is starting to become an accepted part of the scenery.

But the YT debate keeps cropping up, the Fat Han builds keep dominating big tournaments, and the same group of non-powergamers who don't even play with it keep turning up to defend it.

I don't even think the Falcon needs a fix, as I actually think the main cause of this is C3PO rather than the Falcon - but it amounts to the same thing.

BS. Tie swarms have been bitched about since day one and still are. When b's were new that's all anyone ran and people bitched. Don't get me started on the shuttle hate.

The Falcon is fine. The Phantom is fine. This game is fine. If you don't like the rules, then houserule to your hearts content. But for the love of gosh would you people please quit bitching that you can't beat a fat falcon? Because that is all this is. This 'debate' keeps getting vomited into this forum because too many people essentially suck at this game and think that whining about it is preferable to actually learning how to play it.

\

Yeah the whining is getting to me now and i'm really easy going.

Just play the game, find a way around it, house rule as suggested or if you really cant then take amonth or so out and see how the new stuff changes things then give it another go.

One or two 'optimal' builds do not mean a broken game. I've worked with far more flawed systems.

If you think that a 3 point card that can potentially allow you to receive 1 evade result more than you normally would, once per combat phase is a massive problem in need of a "fix", then God only knows what you must think of Recon Specialist...

With the Falcon Title and C3PO the Fat Han can guarantee 2 evades. If they need to risk it they can go for 3 with a fair degree of success.

On a ship with 13HP this makes it extremely tanky - something that is fine if the ship is only designed as a tank, but less balanced if the ship has the damage dealing potential of Han w/gunner or Luke.

If recon specialist was unbalanced we'd see them in every crew slot - but we don't. C3PO has become the gold standard (sorry) in falcon lists though.

If you think that a 3 point card that can potentially allow you to receive 1 evade result more than you normally would, once per combat phase is a massive problem in need of a "fix", then God only knows what you must think of Recon Specialist...

With the Falcon Title and C3PO the Fat Han can guarantee 2 evades. If they need to risk it they can go for 3 with a fair degree of success.

On a ship with 13HP this makes it extremely tanky - something that is fine if the ship is only designed as a tank, but less balanced if the ship has the damage dealing potential of Han w/gunner or Luke.

If recon specialist was unbalanced we'd see them in every crew slot - but we don't. C3PO has become the gold standard (sorry) in falcon lists though.

Again total BS. With Falcon title and 3po you can get two and only two evades without PtL or getting a focus from somewhere else (or possibly range three but then 3po is not automatic). And those two are only good once per turn.

Do you even know how these cards work? Or are you just following the misguided 'experts' that post this crap?

If you think that a 3 point card that can potentially allow you to receive 1 evade result more than you normally would, once per combat phase is a massive problem in need of a "fix", then God only knows what you must think of Recon Specialist...

With the Falcon Title and C3PO the Fat Han can guarantee 2 evades. If they need to risk it they can go for 3 with a fair degree of success.

On a ship with 13HP this makes it extremely tanky - something that is fine if the ship is only designed as a tank, but less balanced if the ship has the damage dealing potential of Han w/gunner or Luke.

If recon specialist was unbalanced we'd see them in every crew slot - but we don't. C3PO has become the gold standard (sorry) in falcon lists though.

The 2 reasons c3-p0 is great are simple:

- Certainty beats randomness.With the title you can guarantee 2 evades every round which is huge on an already durable ship. Han's special ability +Gunner/Luke takes care of the offense with up to 4 rerolls.

- c3p0 + title make the falcon very very tough to kill in the late-game, even mathematically impossible in some cases. To the guy saying it's only 2 evades: Do you know how huge 2 guaranteed evades per round are when there's only 1-2 ships left on the table? That's why you usually either take out the falcon first or die trying.

- Certainty beats randomness.With the title you can guarantee 2 evades every round which is huge on an already durable ship.

Aaaand then you've blocked two hits. TIE fighters do that regularly and on pretty much every attack. What 3-PO does is upgrade your Evade die to an Evade token, once. You can get another Evade token off of MF title but that costs you your action.

Two hits blocked, then back to a single, unmodified evade die for the rest of the round.

A standard four ship XXBB Rebel firepower squad has 12 attack dice and 26 hit points, 16 of which are behind one agility and 12 of which are behind two.

A seven TIE swarm has 14 attack dice and 21 hit points, all behind 3 likely modified agility dice and is in a position to block.

Falcons beat phantoms, and everyone's either playing phantoms because people are screaming OP or their counter because people screaming OP. Now people are screaming OP about the Falcons. Few people are playing the things that kill Falcons because they're not "in," opting for low health elite builds, TIE interceptors or TIE phantoms.

So many GenCon champions took Falcons because they were expecting a Phantom glut (Paul Heaver's report on GenCon's national was pretty much "phantoms where art thou"), not because it's some sort of overpowered list.

Yet, the Phantom still won Gencon...

Here's the thing:

Prior to 3PO, I'd say falcon players only took the mf title maybe 50-60% of the time, and when they did I often didn't see them using the evade action much, mostly late in the game when they were on their last legs and wanted to last one round longer. They usually used their action(s) on offense as avoiding 1 hit a round doesn't mean that much when you have 13 hit points.

3PO makes things TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Now if you take him and MF title, you get TWO guaranteed evades a round, that's much more enticing than just one with the MF title, especially since 3PO doesn't require an action. Plus you can still have good offense by having a gunner and/or ptl/predator and/or han's ability.

People say well 3PO only cancels ONE hit a round. Well with a tanky ship like a falcon, even focus firing means you're probably taking at least 2-3 rounds to kill it depending on your squad makeup. That extra hit cancelled each of those 2-3 rounds means the falcon might last one round longer than expected, so it gets one extra shot at your squad.