And once again FTS Gecko proves the point made.

(not that I expect him to understand how childish his posting is. He needs to grow up first)

And... everyone take a deep breath, and think before your next post if it's constructive to this topic or not.

Please.

All we need now is a flame war over how a single ship/build may or may not be overpowered. I do tend to think if the fat han was so strong why hasnt it not won worlds yet ? Granted it has won lesser tournaments, but seems there is more to this build than it being an easy button win build.

I'd say that a Fat Han is indeed an "EZ mode." To those who don't think so, I don't think people who say EZ mode means "auto-win" or "no-thought" mode. It just means that there are less variables to consider, and it's more forgiving and takes certain things out of the equation (no chance to get one-shotted, don't have to deal with fire arcs, lots of damage mitigation, lots of attack re-rolls). I'd certainly say that is EZ mode.

Let's not sugar coat it.

However, again, as everyone else has been saying: it's not unbeatable. It just requires different thought and strategy against than 'regular' lists. To those who can't seem to beat it, try other ships/strategies. You'll beat it eventually and learn to deal with it. Clearly, there are people who have.

All we need now is a flame war over how a single ship/build may or may not be overpowered. I do tend to think if the fat han was so strong why hasnt it not won worlds yet ? Granted it has won lesser tournaments, but seems there is more to this build than it being an easy button win build.

"Fat" Han isn't a list/build that's had a chance to compete in World's yet.

I'd say that a Fat Han is indeed an "EZ mode." To those who don't think so, I don't think people who say EZ mode means "auto-win" or "no-thought" mode. It just means that there are less variables to consider, and it's more forgiving and takes certain things out of the equation (no chance to get one-shotted, don't have to deal with fire arcs, lots of damage mitigation, lots of attack re-rolls). I'd certainly say that is EZ mode.

The problem with that analysis is that the Falcon is most likely going to be outnumbered. And no matter what or how you outfit your Falcon, Assault Missiles aside, it's only ever going to be hitting one target per turn.

Han's 46 points. Give him the Falcon title and 3PO, and he's already 4-1 down against Academies or Z95's. Being outnumbered 4 to one isn't easy mode.

And Han can only hit one target, per turn. Realistically - even stacked to the gills with offensive upgrades - it will take two turns for the Falcon to kill a single ship. Can it one-shot things? Sure it can, but you can't rely on it. Realistically, it will take two turns to down a single ship.

It could have four, five, six ships shooting back at it in that time. Even with the Falcon title and 3PO, it's going to be soaking up the vast majority of the damage inflicted on it.

It's tough and it's forgiving, yes. But against a smart opponent it's going to get blocked, it's going to be denied it's actions, and it's going to take damage.

Some very good points and i have to agree.

I sure don't remmeber there being a 360 turret on the Falcon. Its like a forward turret!!! What the heck. And whats with that dial?? And the total disregard for need of actions? Augh.

Just in case this wasn't sarcasm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVLLbqSuiAg

2:35 onwards. Yea, that's right, not one, but two 360 turrets on the Falcon. One on top, one underneath. You're welcome.

Notice how it requires 2 people to operate? Notice how they have to actually manually move the turret? Notice how X-Wing's Falcon requires none of that?

That's the problem I have with the Falcon in this game. It does not require additional crew to move the turret and the turret can fire at targets freely without actions.

Notice how it requires 2 people to operate? Notice how they have to actually manually move the turret? Notice how X-Wing's Falcon requires none of that?

That's the problem I have with the Falcon in this game. It does not require additional crew to move the turret and the turret can fire at targets freely without actions.

Now, that must have been sarcasm. It had to be. Right?

....right?

I'd say that a Fat Han is indeed an "EZ mode." To those who don't think so, I don't think people who say EZ mode means "auto-win" or "no-thought" mode. It just means that there are less variables to consider, and it's more forgiving and takes certain things out of the equation (no chance to get one-shotted, don't have to deal with fire arcs, lots of damage mitigation, lots of attack re-rolls). I'd certainly say that is EZ mode.

The problem with that analysis is that the Falcon is most likely going to be outnumbered. And no matter what or how you outfit your Falcon, Assault Missiles aside, it's only ever going to be hitting one target per turn.

Han's 46 points. Give him the Falcon title and 3PO, and he's already 4-1 down against Academies or Z95's. Being outnumbered 4 to one isn't easy mode.

And Han can only hit one target, per turn. Realistically - even stacked to the gills with offensive upgrades - it will take two turns for the Falcon to kill a single ship. Can it one-shot things? Sure it can, but you can't rely on it. Realistically, it will take two turns to down a single ship.

It could have four, five, six ships shooting back at it in that time. Even with the Falcon title and 3PO, it's going to be soaking up the vast majority of the damage inflicted on it.

It's tough and it's forgiving, yes. But against a smart opponent it's going to get blocked, it's going to be denied it's actions, and it's going to take damage.

Well, all that is certainly true. That's the cost of putting all your eggs in one basket. But that doesn't change the fact that I think most people consider it easy mode (again, not unbeatable or completely devoid of thought) due to the reasons I mentioned (ignore arcs, can't get one-Shotted, lots of dice manipulation). It is probably by far the easiest ship to pilot successfully and do reasonably well.

BUT, the second paragraph you didn't quote does have me saying that people can and will learn to deal with it. Clearly, there are people who have.

I don't think the Falcon is bad for the game. Most popular games that have any element of customizability are certain to have "top tier" things that are the things to beat. What is considered "top tier" could change over the lifespan of the game (or it could not), but other things always have a chance of winning.

For those who don't like that the Falcon ignores what you feel the game should be (like lets say the description of creating a ballet of ships), one of several things needs to happen:

1- even better stuff that everyone likes that just ruins Falcons days needs to be released (or discovered)

2- a new better "hotness" is released (or discovered)

3- quit the game (I'd prefer people don't choose this option, but if you hate it, you hate it).

Fat Han is a limited sure thing. Sky falls not.

And once again FTS Gecko proves the point made.

(not that I expect him to understand how childish his posting is. He needs to grow up first)

Come on. Don't be a nanny spoil-sport. I rather enjoyed Gecko's 'deal with it' image.

This thread is one of large number of QQ threads, and I'm perfectly fine with Gecko calling it for what it is. Sometimes doing so requires one to be a little less than diplomatic.

This thread is one of large number of QQ threads, and I'm perfectly fine with Gecko calling it for what it is. Sometimes doing so requires one to be a little less than diplomatic.

Indeed. And so long as (the same old) posters continue to ignore every single bit of advice, suggestion and tactic provided by the X-Wing community in favor of continuously creating (the same old) hate threads for nothing more an old fashioned bleating, I'll continue to call it how I see it. Less QQ, more pew pew - simple as that.

And once again FTS Gecko proves the point made.

(not that I expect him to understand how childish his posting is. He needs to grow up first)

Come on. Don't be a nanny spoil-sport. I rather enjoyed Gecko's 'deal with it' image.

This thread is one of large number of QQ threads, and I'm perfectly fine with Gecko calling it for what it is. Sometimes doing so requires one to be a little less than diplomatic.

He had been doing that kind crap against ranty posts like regular posters trying to be constructive, i don't know what you are speaking about. A childish behaviour doesn't stop being one just because you happen to agree with his underlying point.

This is the kind of BS we get every wave.

"TIE swarms are OP"
"TIE Interceptors are awesome"
"Oh my god B-Wings"
"Wow Imperial Aces"
"Oh man Outrider ruins the game"

FFS People just enjoy the game.

Indeed. And so long as (the same old) posters continue to ignore every single bit of advice, suggestion and tactic provided by the X-Wing community in favor of continuously creating (the same old) hate threads for nothing more an old fashioned bleating, I'll continue to call it how I see it. Less QQ, more pew pew - simple as that.

I'd not mind you calling out things you object against.

But the rather immature way you do it? Nah.

It makes any point you are trying to make invalid because you will not be taken seriously.

Back to topic; Yes; there are way too many threads about the YT.

No, it is not OP. But yes; I feel it is somewhat easy mode. Forgiving in most aspects and a hard counter to some ships.

Yes; it is boring as [expletive self-censored] to see them so bloody often.

(but that goes for any other 'net-build' list I face too)

I dislike the fat falcon builds. I can, have, and will continue to beat them. Here is what I know about the game,Fat falcons, and more than a knee jerk reaction to them:

If 2 players of equal skill sit down at a table and play to thier ability with 2 lists of equal power and the dice are even, each player is 50/50 to win. The rock/paper/scissors dynamic (one emerging aspect of the game I also dislike) is in effect the game might swing 60-40 or 65-35 at extremes (mathematically impossible match ups even theoretically becoming real is another emmergance I worry about). If the dice aren't even the odds of any one player winning vary by the amount that the dice favor one or the other. If one player simply outflys the other thier odds also improve.

Turrets serve a similar function: at the lowest player skill ability it does make things easier. 2 poor players facing off, the one that brings turrets wins. 2 average players facing off, again I'll put money on the one packing turrets (especially falcon). An average player with turrets vs. a good player? That's a pretty even match. Good player vs. average player with turret? Pretty **** even again. Great player vs. good player with fat falcon? I'd put money on the great player but the good player will likely win 30-35% of the time. Turrets, and especially the 3 and soon 4 dice turrets with dfense stacking puts the odds ever in your favor. Now give the great player the fat falcon and watch him win 8+/10 games vs. a good player if the list doesn't directly counter the falcon.

Fat falcons neutralize the dice variance. Now a player can be outflown and still pull off a win. Now a player can have dice go against them (to a certain extent) and still have a better than average chance at the win. Now a good player can beat a great player with more reliability (still not 50/50 but closer!). That is the power of the fat falcon. It does feel like a rigged slot machine more often than it should.

The other thing the fat falcon does is neutralize your filler. A 2 dice ship at range 2-3 even with modification probably can't scratch it. Even with mods at range 1 it's rough. Soon we'll be seeing DR 3-4 falcons and those 2mred dice packing ships will have NO CHANCE to win (without 6-8 ships). Meanwhile the Falcon can 1 shot any 4 HP ship in the game on any given turn without help and with the 2-3 other guns that still fit in the list they can reduce your ship count by 2 in a round. NOTHING YOU CAN DO about it (again, fly better means nothing. You will end up in arcs, if you're not ending up in arcs you're playing subpar competition and should win anyway or should be crowned world champ any time now).

Swarms can beat falcons more often than not. Swarms can even beat phantoms a good deal of the time if flown well. We're getting 3 more cheap swarmable ships any day now (refit awings, scum Zs, M3-As). But if a fat falcon can ignore even more damage a round (I think new chewie can be crit proof and ignore up to 4 damage a round), it's going to require 3-4 dice to touch it or 4+ 2 dice attacks to be meaningful. That's not a meta I'm looking forward to.

This has been REALLY long. But I hope it makes sense. Fat falcons aren't "easy mode" but are tilting the game so that other options are much less useful. Pay for maneuverability and you're punished. Don't pay for 3 or more red dice? Punished. Don't account for it in squad building and tactics? Punished. No other ship does this and I hope the 2 new large turret ships don't share that characteristic.

I can, have, and will continue to beat it. I don't like what it does to the game state nor enjoy most of my matches against it. I'm not sure that DR 3-4 falcons will be a thing, but they could be, and they could lead to game states where it's not just choose between 2 poor choices, but that before you even sit down and roll a single dice, you've already lost with ~80% certainty.

One last thing: I didn't mention list familiarity earlier. That is one more game factor that tips the scales. With FFG's current release rate I feel that has been nearly neutralized.

If there wasn't something wrong with the falcon you would not get constant QQ, now I've killed and been killed by the falcon it's not indestructible by any means but turret ships in general invalidate good manoeuvring.

I don't do tournaments but I can imagine how dull and repetitive facing the same list over and over must be, right now fat falcons are cutting off people creative options and that is something that needs addressing.

Of course once decimator hits I expect some people to have their eyes opened.

It's like biggs I'd never use him myself he violates the one big rule of wargaming never take control away from the player.

Also:

More Pew Pew

Less QQ

Actually means "more shooting/playing" and "less stop crying" or play more cry more. From the way its being used, posters seem to mean:

QQ

Go Pew Pew instead.

Also:

More Pew Pew

Less QQ

Actually means "more shooting/playing" and "less stop crying" or play more cry more. From the way its being used, posters seem to mean:

QQ

Go Pew Pew instead.

Er, no. Less QQ, More Pew Pew means cry less, shoot more. "A term directed at whiners to stop crying and start doing something useful instead."

Very straightforward - just like dealing with Falcon builds.

I feel that I should point out that turrets don't totally nullify good maneuvering, they merely shift its emphasis from arcs to ranges. With the coming exception of the Outrider title, you gain much more by firing at a turreted ship at range3 than you lose, or rather, they gain far less than you by defending at range 3. Especially Han, since he's firing when it's highly likely everyone still has defensive tokens left.

The X-Wing designers talk about the Falcon and turrets in general around minute 9:00 in this Team Covenant interview at the 2014 GenCon. It's not as bad as you think. Strategy is still required. Look deeper.

With outrider there is no benefit to keeping your distance he gets four attacks and you don't get the bonus green dice.

By closing you can force him to barrel roll which will mean no bonus to his attack dice.

Although against the falcon you get the bonus die that's a two edged sword because so does he and the last thing you want is to help the falcons defence.

With outrider there is no benefit to keeping your distance he gets four attacks and you don't get the bonus green dice.

By closing you can force him to barrel roll which will mean no bonus to his attack dice.

Although against the falcon you get the bonus die that's a two edged sword because so does he and the last thing you want is to help the falcons defence.

That's true, but the average Imperial craft will be rolling 4 evade dice against 3 attacks, while even TIEs get to roll 2 against 2 (which statistically gives the attacker a slight numerical advantage). Any other Imperial craft is rolling 3-4 attack dice against 2. And yes, the Outrider will not grant the bonus evade, and again the emphasis shifts from playing to your arcs to a game of playing to your ranges (just now it's a different range than the Falcon).