It's a boring and obnoxious build which is un-fun to play against and has killed innovation in my area. But you already know that.

I'm more interested in finding out why OP thinks that IG-88 is going to be the cure?

So I want to address several points that have often been made here and want to clear up my position a little as well.

Is the falcon and fat Han in particular an instant win? No. It can be beaten.

Can it be flown poorly? Yes, of course it can.

Is it absurdly forgiving? Yes. This is what makes so **** good in tourneys.

Is it lazy? Yes. That was my point, it's a lazy way to play and it irks me when I see 3 of them in contention for the final round of a tourney and they've beaten far more interesting and involved lists by using a really crappy set of probability mechanics to get there, not actual play.

Is the falcon an arc dodger? Only inasmuch as a y wing is arc dodger. This whole game is about arc dodging.

I've always liked to make this game a chess match. It's supposed to be a game about skillful maneuvering. Han craps all over that. Before the phantom I liked to run tur phenir and 6 academy ties. Tur was my knight, the ties were my pawns. After wave 3 I dropped a tie and upgraded tur for echo. It's the same chess match. Almost pure strategy. But fat Han doesnt care about that. He will negate 2 hits and doll out two hits like clockwork. And all my strategizing is for naught. You can't out strategize statiscal probability. And that's why I posted this. Fat Han removes from contention the most important part of the game: the part where you actually play.

And, for the most part, this is the same rant that has been leveled against the Falcon since Wave 2. Imo, it hasn't destroyed the game (and trust me, for a while there, double Falcons were very strong). Though, I am not sure where you are getting 2 hits? It is amazing how the Falcon slows down if only one hit goes through...

And the sad fact is, you will likely never be able to completely dodge arcs, and at some point, the dice will play a role.

I'm not sure which The Sky is Falling thread is better.

This one with Mssr. Solo, or this one in which Dash Rendar is going to "destroy the game" such that "a monkey, could roll dice and win a game".

So which one is more monkey-friendly? Han or Dash? Maybe we can get two monkeys and have them roll off to see who wins.

So I want to address several points that have often been made here and want to clear up my position a little as well.

That sounds like a good idea.

SIs the falcon an arc dodger? Only inasmuch as a y wing is arc dodger.

Ah, you're catching on! Ships with turrets--all ships with turrets--pay a premium for that ability, and they have to hustle a bit to make up for it.

You can't out strategize statiscal probability.

So you run five TIE Fighters, spending 60 points on an element of your list that gives you moderate to weak offense for the points, but has highly reliable defense and lots of hit points in the aggregate. And what you're upset about is that your opponent has the potential to spend 60 points on an element of his or her list that does the same thing in a differently shaped sack?

SAnd that's why I posted this. Fat Han removes from contention the most important part of the game: the part where you actually play.

I see: when you said "clarify", you meant "repeat".

Fat Han is the least efficient offensive piece in the game, meaning he contributes less per point to the game's win condition. What mechanism do you believe it has that overcomes that handicap? What exactly is the list doing that makes it successful? If you're not interested in answering that question, then there's no conversation to be had here--nothing you can learn from anyone, and vice-versa.

I'm not sure which The Sky is Falling thread is better.

This one with Mssr. Solo, or this one in which Dash Rendar is going to "destroy the game" such that "a monkey, could roll dice and win a game".

So which one is more monkey-friendly? Han or Dash? Maybe we can get two monkeys and have them roll off to see who wins.

I wouldn't say either is easy mode, but Dash Rendar will melt your face off. That ship is stronk.

I can really see Seanamal's point. It really seems like the thing becomes a set of flying numbers that automatically dole out numbers against numbers for numbers yay numbers. And about 7 or 8 months ago, I'd be 'like'ing his post and agreeing almost sycophantically with him.

However, there are a few things that make his points about Fat Han much less potent. Specifically, those things have three wings, six cannons, and at least two totally badass pilots.

Defenders have the speed and maneuverability to keep up with a Falcon, and the evade dice to go toe-to-toe for several rounds. Plus, even a beefed up Rexler comes in at fewer points. Fewer points, but it can rip the Falcon apart given the slightest chance. Especially since a Fat Han build rarely leaves much in the way of dangerous wingmen. In fact, I'd take this against a FH any day of the week:

Rexler Brath + HLC + Predator + Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

All I can say is good luck getting C-3P0 to work, assuming Tyrannosaurus Rexler doesn't blow him off by flipping 3 damage cards up in a single shot.

That being said, there are a lot of very simple methods to deal with Falcons, things like picking certain maneuvers, that can be applied to any ship. After all, fighting at range 3 is much more advantageous for the other ships than the Falcon.

Outmaneuver is a killer against any YT-1300 build. It entirely negates C-3P0 at range 1 & 2. No evade dice = no C-3P0 affect. Sure El Han Grande is strong with HP and shields, but how long will he survive with no defense roll? Especially against a squad like That One Guy suggests?

I can really see Seanamal's point. It really seems like the thing becomes a set of flying numbers that automatically dole out numbers against numbers for numbers yay numbers. And about 7 or 8 months ago, I'd be 'like'ing his post and agreeing almost sycophantically with him.

However, there are a few things that make his points about Fat Han much less potent. Specifically, those things have three wings, six cannons, and at least two totally badass pilots.

Defenders have the speed and maneuverability to keep up with a Falcon, and the evade dice to go toe-to-toe for several rounds. Plus, even a beefed up Rexler comes in at fewer points. Fewer points, but it can rip the Falcon apart given the slightest chance. Especially since a Fat Han build rarely leaves much in the way of dangerous wingmen. In fact, I'd take this against a FH any day of the week:

Rexler Brath + HLC + Predator + Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

All I can say is good luck getting C-3P0 to work, assuming Tyrannosaurus Rexler doesn't blow him off by flipping 3 damage cards up in a single shot.

That being said, there are a lot of very simple methods to deal with Falcons, things like picking certain maneuvers, that can be applied to any ship. After all, fighting at range 3 is much more advantageous for the other ships than the Falcon.

I think you're spot on about the defender in regards to the Falcon.

Outmaneuver is a killer against any YT-1300 build. It entirely negates C-3P0 at range 1 & 2. No evade dice = no C-3P0 affect. Sure El Han Grande is strong with HP and shields, but how long will he survive with no defense roll? Especially against a squad like That One Guy suggests?

In my experience, about 3 rounds. Fewer if the flip-ups are really lucky.

I can really see Seanamal's point. It really seems like the thing becomes a set of flying numbers that automatically dole out numbers against numbers for numbers yay numbers. And about 7 or 8 months ago, I'd be 'like'ing his post and agreeing almost sycophantically with him.

However, there are a few things that make his points about Fat Han much less potent. Specifically, those things have three wings, six cannons, and at least two totally badass pilots.

Defenders have the speed and maneuverability to keep up with a Falcon, and the evade dice to go toe-to-toe for several rounds. Plus, even a beefed up Rexler comes in at fewer points. Fewer points, but it can rip the Falcon apart given the slightest chance. Especially since a Fat Han build rarely leaves much in the way of dangerous wingmen. In fact, I'd take this against a FH any day of the week:

Rexler Brath + HLC + Predator + Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

All I can say is good luck getting C-3P0 to work, assuming Tyrannosaurus Rexler doesn't blow him off by flipping 3 damage cards up in a single shot.

That being said, there are a lot of very simple methods to deal with Falcons, things like picking certain maneuvers, that can be applied to any ship. After all, fighting at range 3 is much more advantageous for the other ships than the Falcon.

I think you're spot on about the defender in regards to the Falcon.

============================

Did You Say Killing Falcons?

============================

99 points

Pilots

------

Rexler Brath (47)

TIE Defender (37), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Predator (3)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Backstabber (16)

There, see? Two different approaches to the same problem. Mine uses Outmaneuver to negate much of Han's tankiness and 3P0 antics, and this one makes them count only against 1 ship out of 5, so if it works against one, the rest of them just shrug and go "ok, whatever" and keep firing.

Or even this variant of the above squad:

Rexler Brath — TIE Defender 37
Outmaneuver 3
Heavy Laser Cannon 7

Black Squadron Pilot — TIE Fighter 14
Outmaneuver 3

Black Squadron Pilot — TIE Fighter 14
Outmaneuver 3

"Howlrunner" — TIE Fighter 18
Determination 1

Outmaneuver is a killer against any YT-1300 build. It entirely negates C-3P0 at range 1 & 2. No evade dice = no C-3P0 affect. Sure El Han Grande is strong with HP and shields, but how long will he survive with no defense roll? Especially against a squad like That One Guy suggests?

In my experience, about 3 rounds. Fewer if the flip-ups are really lucky.

18 expected points of damage in 3 rounds with that list vs MF title and 3po at range 2.

Bear in mind Han will probably have killed a squint on round 2 so 15.5 expected damage if you work that in.

Hans advantage is the 360 firing arc. The disadvantage is that you can get more firepower from 3 Tie Fighters for less. Go ahead and put in some B-wings and place it against Han. He will have a few ships with a total of 6 attack dice from 2 ships. He will be up against 12 attack dice from 4 X-wings or B-wings.

Han will likely shoot first.

Can you beat Phantoms with a PS 8 Defender?

Surprisingly, you can beat Phantoms with a lower PS.

Outmaneuver is a killer against any YT-1300 build. It entirely negates C-3P0 at range 1 & 2. No evade dice = no C-3P0 affect. Sure El Han Grande is strong with HP and shields, but how long will he survive with no defense roll? Especially against a squad like That One Guy suggests?

In my experience, about 3 rounds. Fewer if the flip-ups are really lucky.

18 expected points of damage in 3 rounds with that list vs MF title and 3po at range 2.

Bear in mind Han will probably have killed a squint on round 2 so 15.5 expected damage if you work that in.

It's possible, but in that build you're likely to play defensively because the longer your squints survive, the worse it is for Han. (Also, many of the popular Falcon escorts also only have 1 Agility, like Dagger Squadrons).

Can you beat Phantoms with a PS 8 Defender?

In my experience, actually, yes. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Even with HLC's 4 attack dice, you have a better chance to hit 4 evade dice than 4 evade dice has to evade 4 attack dice. The last time I fought a Phantom, it was a PS 9 Whisper fully decked out. It was killed in two shots. One from Rexler at range 3, and once again from a Predatory Black Squadron bringing up the rear. It took one round of firing and it was dead. the HLC secured 2 of those shots, using up the Phantom's dice modification, leaving it with bare dice to defend against the second attack (which failed). And that was 2 attack dice getting their full damage after modification and reroll (a build which i've been criticized on this very forum for in the past). Just because 4 evade dice can evade a lot, it doesn't mean they will. I mean, as far as I know even with 4 evade dice getting 1 evade is not statistically guaranteed.

Can you beat Phantoms with a PS 8 Defender?

Against whisper hardly. The list lacks the numbers due to HLC rexler costs and defender's bane are good flankers who can keep themselves at the sidelines of them since that way they can't play at their strenghts. Interceptors would give the list troubles too.

@Thatoneguy

Yes, if you can actually shoot at him, and then kill it if it hasn't evade + focus token, which is unlikely for a decent player. Most of the time you can just arc dodge. Just so you know, the average hits against a cloaked phantom with evade + focus equals 0.49 with a focus HLC + predator. Two turns is either lucky, or your opponent didn't go for the evade, opening himself to get blasted, which would had been a wrong play.

Can you beat Phantoms with a PS 8 Defender?

Against whisper hardly. The list lacks the numbers due to HLC rexler costs and defender's bane are good flankers who can keep themselves at the sidelines of them since that way they can't play at their strenghts. Interceptors would give the list troubles too.

@Thatoneguy

Yes, if you can actually shoot at him, and then kill it if it hasn't evade + focus token, which is unlikely for a decent player. Most of the time you can just arc dodge. Just so you know, the average hits against a cloaked phantom with evade + focus equals 0.49 with a focus HLC + predator. Two turns is either lucky, or your opponent didn't go for the evade, opening himself to get blasted, which would had been a wrong play.

Well, I've been doing quite well against the ones I face. I just make short banking turns to maximize my fire coverage, and use asteroids to narrow down the field of possibilities. A phantom can only arc dodge and still get a shot on you so much if you stay far away from them. With a slow enough approach, they eventually have to get close to you and the far end of the firing arc is a big swatch to try to avoid. As of now, no Phantom list has given me trouble, they've all been the first to die and the lists usually seem to fold without them. Also haven't had one last more than 3 combat turns.

Trying to have any kind of discussion with that kind of arguments is really a futile.

I should just stop reading the answers to this threads, because it is impossible to have any kind of discussion in this regard, i already put FTS Gecko in ignore because of the "L2P" stupid flamebaits, which are no better than a rant about Fat Solo. Not a single bit. It is not constructive, and it is just trying to win a discussion for the sake of winning it which really brings the worst of forum posters.

Two thumbs up.

Thatoneguy taking for granted to get to shoot every turn against a phantom (unlikely as it is)

Average hits from focus+predator+HLC on a evade+focus whisper = 0.49 hits (average 8 turns to take him out)

Average hits from non focus, predator+HLC on a evade + focus whisper = 0.05 (infinitum xD)

Average hits from regular 4 attack gunner FCS whisper on a focus Rexler = 1.5 hits (average 4 turns)

Average hits from regular 4 attack gunner FCS whisper on a nonfocus Rexler = 2.05 hits (average 3 turns)

Rexler isn't favored against whisper. Again, i repeat, if your opponent choose not to evade, yes, things may change, but that's just the wrong play.

============================

Did You Say Killing Falcons?

============================

99 points

Pilots

------

Rexler Brath (47)

TIE Defender (37), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Predator (3)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Backstabber (16)

I prefer rather:

TIE-f Defenders - 100p

Rexler Brath — TIE Defender 37 Veteran Instincts 1 Heavy Laser Cannon 7

"Howlrunner" — TIE Fighter 18 Veteran Instincts 1

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Two PS10 ships are better against phantoms, and all PS8-9 pilots, also Howlruner could help more than predator, coz Howlrunner can pretty well draw fire from the Defender (aka 19p "Biggs")

You know what else is futile? Trying to discuss tactics and offer suggestions to someone who really only wants to pout and cry and whinge.

Throughout the course of this thread (and the other turret threads, and C3PO threads, and Han threads, and Falcon threads that you've pouted and cried and whinged in) there's been literally hundreds of viable suggestions for dealing with a Falcon list.

But you've ignored them all. Every last one of them. Because you don't want suggestions, or ideas, or advice, do you? No - you want to whine. You just want to do is cry and whine and bleat about how one ship, one card, one build is - in your hopelessly skewed and irrational opinion - totally OP and ruins teh gaem and OMG PLZ NERF NAOW.

Newsflash, kiddo: turrets are part of the game. Han's part of the game. C3PO is part of the game.

Two thumbs up.

You too.