Again, someone who struggles but refuses to reconsider the assumptions they are making.

... Fat Han involves no strategy, no maneuvering....

Outmaneuver pretty much ruins Fat Hans day. You can't roll your one agility die so no one possible evade and as you can't roll your agility die C-3PO doesn't work.

Several Black Squadron or named ties with EPT slots will make short work of Han in this format.

Vessery with an HLC and Outmaneuver is equally as nasty etc, etc, etc.

Interceptors work well with it too.

It also works against other squads you'll face, so it's not a one trick Han killer.

It is just that it has remarkably few weaknesses and it is a hard counter to quite a few things paying a premium in points for their manoeuvrability.

It's also popular because it's popular; people see it win and think not "how can I beat that?" but "ooh, I should be running that!"

When you have most squads battling it out you have to account for maneuvering, order of movement, final placement of ships, etc. This is where the entire strategy element of this game is located. Fat Han can ignore 99% of this. As long as he avoids flying off the board or landing on a rock he doesn't care. Because Fat Han involves no strategy, no maneuvering.

As several people have now said, you can certainly fly him that way, but only if you don't mind losing. Fat Han is literally the least efficient offensive piece in the game at 55-60 points for 3 Attack. For what you pay to buy Fat Han, you can afford to buy Wedge and Biggs, or up to five (!) Bandit Squadron Pilots. So the right question to ask is why he's so often worth it...

All Fat Han does is pull the arm of a rigged slot machine. Did I get 3 cherries? No? Pull the arm again! No? Again! No? Again! It's stupid.

...and this is not the answer. Fat Han succeeds because it can (1) deny your attacks or force you to make ineffective ones, as well as (2) being hard to deny in turn. But that first point isn't accomplished easily or without thought.

The fundamental problem I've seen so many people make in trying to understand what makes the Falcon tick is missing the fact that the Falcon is an arc-dodging unit. It has to be! If you joust thoughtlessly with it, that lone gun with its three or four dice can be outweighed by ships that are drastically more efficient--meaning nearly anything.

Now to prevent this from being a simple rant I want to point out my glimmer of hope on the horizon. A glimmer that is the steely glint on the chassis of a merciless killing machine named IG-88. I think IG-88 will be rock to Han's scissors.

You don't have to look that far ahead, and in fact you can even look back a couple of waves to find solutions. Have you ever seen what happens when you unload multiple Cluster Missiles on a Falcon in a single round, or when you apply a few rounds of shots from double HLCs, or when he has to deal with focused fire from a swarm that knows what it's doing? If Han's "armor" is the problem, then take attacks that can get past his armor, or bring so many attacks that his armor can't keep up.

Autothrusters dawg... they will be awesome.

It's popular at the moment because it's a very hard counter to the Phantom builds out there, which have also been popular lately.

Oddly enough there's so many Fat Hans out there that you don't see many phantoms.

The reports from Gencon suggest otherwise. Remember that the winning squad included a phantom and an interceptor.

Not possible. Fat Han clearly exists therefore interceptors are garbage.

/sarcasm

The fundamental problem I've seen so many people make in trying to understand what makes the Falcon tick is missing the fact that the Falcon is an arc-dodging unit. It has to be! If you joust thoughtlessly with it, that lone gun with its three or four dice can be outweighed by ships that are drastically more efficient--meaning nearly anything.

I think the frustration that people have with this is that while the Falcon may be, by some definition, an arc-dodger, it lacks any of the weaknesses that other arc-dodging units in the game have. There are generally two expectations for such a ship: One, that if it doesn't get out of arc it's going to be in trouble, and two, it will have to make difficult choices about trading attacks for safety.

The problem is that the Falcon does neither. An Interceptor that misjudges a boost and doesn't clear an X-wing's arc is in serious trouble. Han takes a few hits. An Interceptor in a bad position may be able to boost/roll out of arc, but may have to go in a direction that sacrifices its attack, or at the very least makes that attack without tokens. The Falcon's turret removes that, and the crew support means loss of action doesn't actually impact the offensive output.

I think the last is a bit of a straw man, too. Not even the noobiest of noobs tries to joust with a Falcon. They may not fly it well, but they turret and durability means they pay less of a penalty for bad choices. For better players it opens up a huge number of options that would be poor choices for anything without a turret.

It's not unbeatable, but it is a very strong list, and it's very frustrating and not-fun for a lot of players to fly against. Honestly, I think that's potentially more dangerous to the game than a truly broken build, and all the (usually obnoxious and insulting) "L2Fly Noob!" responses completely miss that point.

If Han doesn't get out of arc against a swarm or even 3 3-dice ships he IS in trouble. He has a real chance of being killed in round 2. If you joust with Han and make it 3 rounds then you are either facing another 2-ship build or your opponent is completely incompetent.

Those other arc-dodgers cost less than half what a loaded Han costs. They should be more fragile.

I know this doesn't come up much, but I have to ask.. Has no one thought that a counter to this build could be homing missiles? An alpha strike using 4 attack dice homing missiles would ruin Fat Han's day, as you would be unable to spend your evade tokens.

Yes, using 3po would grant you an extra evade, but you couldn't use an evade from the evade action on the MF title, SO, you MIGHT be lucky to get 2 evades (1 roll, and one from 3po), but the likelihood is you'll only be getting one. And against 4 dice, chance are pretty good some damage is coming your way. Homing missiles at least help to mitigate the evade action granting a free evade.

I see no reason why this couldn't ruin Han's day..

Airen Cracken, Veteran Instincts, Cluster Missiles

Lt. Blount, Assault Missile

Bandit, Homing missile, Munition failsafe x3

That's 20 potential damage points pointed Han's way. Han gets one attack, and one only. Han will likely shoot first. If he is able to take out one of the bandits, so be it. Cracken will probably be next in line, attacking and passing off 2 Target locks as free actions to either the Bandits or Blount. Blount will probably fall 3rd or 4th in line, and if he is able to get the assault missile off, he's going to do some serious hurt to Han - even if he doesn't, anyone flying screen for Han is going to eat some damage. Followed up by the 2 or 3 bandits who are left, feeding Han a homing missile or 2 or 3..

If all goes well, Han goes down in turn 1. If not, Han is going to eat it by turn 2 at the latest..

If Han doesn't get out of arc against a swarm or even 3 3-dice ships he IS in trouble. He has a real chance of being killed in round 2. If you joust with Han and make it 3 rounds then you are either facing another 2-ship build or your opponent is completely incompetent.

Those other arc-dodgers cost less than half what a loaded Han costs. They should be more fragile.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be more fragile for the points. What I'm saying is that while Han may function as a defensively-minded Falcon, it does so with a level of forgiveness and lack of compromise that most people expect from the term "arc dodger". They're the same thing in only the most basic sense, and that basic sense falls apart the instant the game starts. If an Interceptor is an arc-dodger, and the Falcon is an arc-dodger, then arc dodging means nothing more than "You don't want to get shot at", and EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME is an arc-dodger.

Yes, if you let Han get focused by THE ENTIRE OPPOSITION SQUADRON FOR MULTIPLE TURNS, it's going to go badly for him. I think a lot of the responses are focusing on the hyperbole, and contributing even more stupid to the discussion than is already there. "Durh, Han's not that great, if you randomly pick maneuvers without looking and let your opponent focus his entire squadron he's going to die, that's not even that strong!"

I think the frustration that people have with this is that while the Falcon may be, by some definition, an arc-dodger, it lacks any of the weaknesses that other arc-dodging units in the game have.

This is largely correct, Fat Han / Super Chewie lack the disadvantages of other arc dodging units. If it fails to get out of arc it has most/all of its defense. It never dies to a single bad roll. Even while dodging arcs it seldom if ever has to give up attacks. There are a ton of things that Fat Han has that other arc dodgers do not.

However, Fat Han / Super Chewie has one enormous drawback that other arc-dodgers do not. It costs 60+ points! That is 2/3 of your list, and easily the price of two other arc-dodging units. It also removes the defensive granularity that comes with multiple ships, because a 4 or 5 damage shot puts all damage on target where much of that damage would have been wasted as overkill against a typical arc-dodging unit. This is a very big deal, allowing you to out-damage his list as a whole dramatically in the early game and allow the compounding advantage to put the game in your hands. For the price of a single Fat Han, you can have 3 X-Wings. Even if one of those is out of arc, the other 2 can still out damage Han.

Is it easy? Not necessarily, but it certainly isn't the no-strategy involved noobathon that people make it out to be.

This is largely correct, Fat Han / Super Chewie lack the disadvantages of other arc dodging units.

I agree, and Buhallin does make some good points about Han fat or thin...

But as you point out, there are ways in which the YT's and Decimator are worse off then an Interceptor is. Another way that's true is the large base which makes it a good deal harder to avoid arc's with in the first place.

Buhallin is right, that the correct answer is not 'Lrn2Play newb' but at the same time the OP was really, really wrong in much of what he said.

If Han doesn't get out of arc against a swarm or even 3 3-dice ships he IS in trouble. He has a real chance of being killed in round 2. If you joust with Han and make it 3 rounds then you are either facing another 2-ship build or your opponent is completely incompetent.

Those other arc-dodgers cost less than half what a loaded Han costs. They should be more fragile.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be more fragile for the points. What I'm saying is that while Han may function as a defensively-minded Falcon, it does so with a level of forgiveness and lack of compromise that most people expect from the term "arc dodger". They're the same thing in only the most basic sense, and that basic sense falls apart the instant the game starts. If an Interceptor is an arc-dodger, and the Falcon is an arc-dodger, then arc dodging means nothing more than "You don't want to get shot at", and EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME is an arc-dodger.

Yes, if you let Han get focused by THE ENTIRE OPPOSITION SQUADRON FOR MULTIPLE TURNS, it's going to go badly for him. I think a lot of the responses are focusing on the hyperbole, and contributing even more stupid to the discussion than is already there. "Durh, Han's not that great, if you randomly pick maneuvers without looking and let your opponent focus his entire squadron he's going to die, that's not even that strong!"

Actually if you take a full brunt hit for one turn Han is probably done. One or two more people landing an arc next turn(and they will, he can't dodge everyone) and he's out. Han is like arc-dodgers in that he must dodge to be effective. He is unlike other arc-dodgers in that he doesn't necessarily die in that one round. But it still costs him the game.

This is different than say a rookie or blue or dagger. They can still do what you paid for by just flying right at the enemy in a lot of cases.

Fat Han is competitive. And if you end up with him against a lot of other single ships he is a bit mathematically unbeatable. But I think those late-game wins are what you paid for. You still have to get to that point. Throwing 3 dice at a time it can take awhile to do that.

I see no reason why this couldn't ruin Han's day..

Airen Cracken, Veteran Instincts, Cluster Missiles

Lt. Blount, Assault Missile

Bandit, Homing missile, Munition failsafe x3

That's 20 potential damage points pointed Han's way. Han gets one attack, and one only. Han will likely shoot first. If he is able to take out one of the bandits, so be it. Cracken will probably be next in line, attacking and passing off 2 Target locks as free actions to either the Bandits or Blount. Blount will probably fall 3rd or 4th in line, and if he is able to get the assault missile off, he's going to do some serious hurt to Han - even if he doesn't, anyone flying screen for Han is going to eat some damage. Followed up by the 2 or 3 bandits who are left, feeding Han a homing missile or 2 or 3..

If all goes well, Han goes down in turn 1. If not, Han is going to eat it by turn 2 at the latest..

The problem with the homing missile is that Han can still spend that evade on any of the other attacks in that round. It's the same reason that Outmaneuver is not really a 3PO counter unless you take lots of them.

I know this doesn't come up much, but I have to ask.. Has no one thought that a counter to this build could be homing missiles? An alpha strike using 4 attack dice homing missiles would ruin Fat Han's day, as you would be unable to spend your evade tokens.

/.../

If all goes well, Han goes down in turn 1. If not, Han is going to eat it by turn 2 at the latest..

While I agree that missiles could work I think going overboard is not the answer. Prototype A-wings with Proton Rockets cost 20 Points and Han cannot Boost away from them while they can Evade away his shots (supposing they don´t need to Boost themselves).

The point of muntions is to win the damage race or counter a strategy, not a whole strategy in itself. A single Lt Blount with Assault Missiles is a counter to Swarm tactics for 20, not an entire strategy for the Rebel list. Same with Proton Rockets vs fat targets with low evasion.

I think the frustration that people have with this is that while the Falcon may be, by some definition, an arc-dodger, it lacks any of the weaknesses that other arc-dodging units in the game have. There are generally two expectations for such a ship: One, that if it doesn't get out of arc it's going to be in trouble, and two, it will have to make difficult choices about trading attacks for safety.

The problem is that the Falcon does neither. An Interceptor that misjudges a boost and doesn't clear an X-wing's arc is in serious trouble. Han takes a few hits. An Interceptor in a bad position may be able to boost/roll out of arc, but may have to go in a direction that sacrifices its attack, or at the very least makes that attack without tokens. The Falcon's turret removes that, and the crew support means loss of action doesn't actually impact the offensive output.

That's true, but incomplete because it seems to assume a cost equivalency between Han and the Interceptor. How many Interceptors can you buy for 55-60 points? How much trouble are you in for making a mistake when you average that cost across all 55-60 points of Interceptors, in comparison to how much trouble Fat Han is in for making a similar mistake?

I'm not saying that Han isn't resilient to damage, and in fact I'm perfectly willing to admit that he's a difficult and frustrating target. But I really do strongly object to the idea, presented most recently but not uniquely by the OP, that a Fat Falcon build is "easy mode" and doesn't require any thought, practice, or skill to use effectively.

I think the last is a bit of a straw man, too. Not even the noobiest of noobs tries to joust with a Falcon. They may not fly it well, but they turret and durability means they pay less of a penalty for bad choices. For better players it opens up a huge number of options that would be poor choices for anything without a turret.

It's not unbeatable, but it is a very strong list, and it's very frustrating and not-fun for a lot of players to fly against. Honestly, I think that's potentially more dangerous to the game than a truly broken build, and all the (usually obnoxious and insulting) "L2Fly Noob!" responses completely miss that point.

I wasn't saying "L2Fly Noob!" at all, although I suppose I can see how it might have come across that way. I really do understand how frustrating it can be to fly against something that you can't seem to damage meaningfully, while it thrashes you with impunity.

My problem with the OP is that this isn't a new criticism, and it's not any more valid now than it was last week, or the week before that, or--in point of fact--the first time people started to get nervous about Falcons in February 2013. It assumes without evidence that flying a Falcon is just a matter of throwing it in the middle of the board and strolling around killing everything, and that's just not how the game works. More importantly, assuming that there's something wrong with the build is comforting because it absolves everyone from having to exert any brainpower, but it's much less constructive than thinking about how the build works, what its path to victory looks like, and how to interrupt that path.

If someone wants to make the case that Fat Falcons are a negative play experience, I'm willing to listen, and I may even agree--although you'll have to work pretty hard to convince me that loaded-up Falcons are very different now than when Wave 2 launched. (The build didn't change much; the metagame changed around it in a way it can exploit.) And honestly if all you want to do is express that you had a frustrating loss, I'm willing to read through that, too. But taking that frustration and allowing it to metastasize into a public tantrum... it doesn't do anyone any good.

I see no reason why this couldn't ruin Han's day..

Airen Cracken, Veteran Instincts, Cluster Missiles

Lt. Blount, Assault Missile

Bandit, Homing missile, Munition failsafe x3

That's 20 potential damage points pointed Han's way. Han gets one attack, and one only. Han will likely shoot first. If he is able to take out one of the bandits, so be it. Cracken will probably be next in line, attacking and passing off 2 Target locks as free actions to either the Bandits or Blount. Blount will probably fall 3rd or 4th in line, and if he is able to get the assault missile off, he's going to do some serious hurt to Han - even if he doesn't, anyone flying screen for Han is going to eat some damage. Followed up by the 2 or 3 bandits who are left, feeding Han a homing missile or 2 or 3..

If all goes well, Han goes down in turn 1. If not, Han is going to eat it by turn 2 at the latest..

The problem with the homing missile is that Han can still spend that evade on any of the other attacks in that round. It's the same reason that Outmaneuver is not really a 3PO counter unless you take lots of them.

How? Han can't spend that evade token on ANY of the homing missile attacks. He can still roll to evade, and use 3po (once). If you're lucky and you have the 3 Bandits throwing them against Han, he can't spend it on any of them. If any of them miss, they keep the missile. Han can't spend the evade token for the lowest 3 PS shots coming at him. He may be able to use it for Cracken and Blount, but that would be it. Or am I reading something wrong??

@Scatha - I realize that this isn't necessarily the best strategy for dealing with Han, but it is a potential that helps mitigate some of the tankiness. I might just try it out to see how it fares. I do like your idea with the Proto A's as well, but that's some pretty low PS to deal with. 5 A's vs 5 Z's? I'll take the Z's.

As someone else alluded to - Fat Han is fully 2/3 of your list at 60+ points. He's only throwing 3 dice. At most you're able to field 2 other ships (3 if you use Z-95's to back him up). 40 points to spend on other ships isn't a lot. Best bet would be to use a YT-2400 I suppose for some extra tankiness with maybe an HLC on board?

The question here isn't how to beat a tank Falcon, it's how to beat it without crippling your list against every other possible opponent. A z-95 missile list has a pretty good chance against Han, but can it win against phantoms/swarms/etc?

IMO the real answer here might be interceptors and proton rocket a-wings. The current Falcon lists are overwhelmingly focused on killing a single z-95 at PS 11. They can shoot in any direction and negate arc dodging, but they aren't nearly as good as the old gunner/marksmanship version at getting through high agilit + focus + evade. So that puts Han into a damage race that he has very little chance of winning. And since you still beat the phantom's PS and have boost + barrel roll to counter its decloak move you should do well against those lists.

The Z list that I presented attacks after Han (provided Han has VI), but attacks before any Phantom list - even with VI. Granted, it's only Cracken, but he would likely be going up against one Phantom, at most maybe 2. Whisper sits at a 9 with VI, and with Cracken set up the way he is, there's 2 attacks coming Whisper's way..

But, I digress. It's just theory and I haven't flown it yet anyways, so the theory is still unproven..

I guess the point I'm making is that the sky isn't falling, and as many here have shown, there are some real disadvantages for Fat Han. Is he Tanky? Hell yeah! Is he as consistent in scratching his opponent's paint without Marksmanship?? Probably not.

X-wing is such an interesting game, and I'm still learning the intricacies of it (the text of some of these cards is mind-boggling at times). I'm pretty thankful that I have you guys to clarify rules for me. Interpretation of them can be a b!tch sometimes. I love crafting lists and really trying to outfly my opponent..

Luke + Predator gives about the same numbers than gunner + markmanship against high agility targets (with 1 reroll)

As an example, average hits against a focus+evade interceptor at range 1/2/3

Fat Solo Luke + Predator 1.24/0.75/0.46

Fat Solo markmanship + Gunner 1.39/0.78/0.39

Good thing about predator is that you can get bumped or use engine upgrade to arc dodge and still take advantadge of it. Good thing about markmanship, is the crits and slightly better damage at range 1. I would definitly say that Luke + Predator gives better firepower output while doing what a Fat Solo should, arc dodge, so it is a better choice in my opinion.

About interceptors being the counter to those. Not really, bad rolls happens, and interceptors are not reliable enough. I had had some fun playing Carnor + Soontir + Turr against Fat Solo builds, but i wouldn't put my monthly salary on having good chances at beating a worse player consistently with it.

The solution to the "problem" of Fat Han is the same as it's always been.

Luke + Predator gives about the same numbers than gunner + markmanship against high agility targets (with 1 reroll)

But how often are you using that combo on Han these days? It seems like VI is more popular, to get PS 11 and shoot before Whisper. Similarly, I've seen serious discussion of using PTL and Lando instead of gunner/Luke for even more tank. I'm not disputing that Falcons can be death to turret ships, I'm just pointing out that the trend in Falcons right now is favoring PS and tank over firepower.

I'm gonna be happy when we get something that boosts some defense on interceptors vs turrets. That will be fun.

Sure, 4 han/luke rolls? As long as I'm rolling 5 or 6 agility dice, I'll let the stats happen.

Quite common actually. But that's irrelevant, since i was just pointing out a, in my opinion, better build than markmanship + gunner, and that it really didn't lose a big amount of firepower against high agility ships while playing at a Fat Solo strenghts. Shooting before whisper is overrated except if you are really building towards focusing it down first.

By the way, an VI + Luke

1.08/0.55/0.33

Good thing about it, is that it has good odds at getting at range 1 since it moves lasts tho, but yes, it does lose average firepower.

To be fair, i find this is even better for regular Tie swarms, than just interceptors, because this allows you to have more ships more time, trying hard to block his engine.

in my opinion, better build than markmanship + gunner

I agree that it probably is better, but I was talking about the old-style HSF lists that were around before wave 4 introduced predator along with the phantom and the metagame changed.

Shooting before whisper is overrated except if you are really building towards focusing it down first.

Not really. Cutting Whisper's defense dice in half makes a huge difference, more than the damage added by predator. And killing the phantom even a single turn faster matters when you're taking 4-5 attack dice in return fire and Han is the only ship in your list that can deal with the phantom's maneuverability.

By the way, an VI + Luke

1.08/0.55/0.33

Which is exactly the point I'm making. Even if you're getting range 1 shots you're averaging 3-4 turns to kill an interceptor (depending on if they take a hull/shield upgrade or not), and if you don't get range 1 shots you might as well give up and shoot something else.

And of course if you take Luke away in favor of Lando, like people are already talking about doing, those numbers get even worse.

Last 3 times I pulled the arm to the rigged slot machine I lost 3 times in a row once to a 2 ship list, BH HLC & Defender HLC don't Remember the poilts