I'm a big FFG fan (and SW ofc), but not sure I like the idea of paying to test their game for them. Testing is very important but it is something THEY should pay for not us. Plus anyone who buys the beta will then have to fork out for the proper game when its released.

Does this feel wrong to anyone else?

I'll just wait for the full release, whenever that may be.

This was discussed way back during the EotE beta too. I bought that beta book and decided I wouldn't bother with the others until the final core books came out.

Personally I don't see a problem with it. I had a choice: buy and partake in the beta or don't. No one forced me to.

this topic again

At the first moment I didn't like the idea so much, but now I like it. I consider it as a "psuedo crowdfunding", with the difference that you get a product (the beta book).

I would like a small discount of 5€ in the final book if you purchase the beta via FFG website, but its fine.

I like their idea, but I will prefer it in digital version too

Well I plan on picking this up as the other two. I may not be part of a gaming group but I'm still interested in seeing what they've come up with and have a couple of suggestions I'd like to find out what the rest of you think about,but not before I can read this.

I don't get the duty mechanic as I have only run the Edge of the Empire Beta adventure and whilst there was bits I did that I know I got wrong its still a learning experience that I like very much.

The latest Beta is very important because it effects all of the games if your GM wants it included since it can go very wrong very quickly and as someone who isn't a Jedi/Sith fan I want more than anything to understand this if I ever want to run or play this properly.

I didn't mind with the Dark Heresy 2nd Edition one as the beta was sold as part of a deal where you get the finished product afterwards. I bought into that one. (And I wish they'd stuck to their original plan rather than change it to being same as the old version, but that's another and lost battle).

For the SW games, I'm not buying any betas for the reasons you give. I'll buy the finished product. I'll say this for it though, given that this appears to be financially viable for them I do reap the benefits of the approach with a more polished product when I do buy the final release.

I didn't mind with the Dark Heresy 2nd Edition one as the beta was sold as part of a deal where you get the finished product afterwards. I bought into that one.

If they did it that way I'd be onboard.

That's a fair point actually. If some people are happy to pay for a beta, those of us who do not take the quick and easy path will benefit from it.

The reason is because they cannot sell PDFs and a large part of the cost is printing and binding. If they were allowed to sell the PDFs they would be much cheaper.

I'm sure they could sell PDFs if they wanted to.

I'm sure they could sell PDFs if they wanted to.

It's pretty much already established that they cannot, due to licensing issues.

It's completely OPTIONAL. Pay for the rough draft early or wait and pay more for the polished book later (thanking those that paid for the book and took the time to make it better).

I'm sure they could sell PDFs if they wanted to.

It's pretty much already established that they cannot, due to licensing issues.

Oh right.

Edit: Just saw the other post bout it!

I'll address your concerns in order:

We have to pay to test their game?

Skip it.

Acquire the book from a friend and Beta Test.

Acquire the book from a less than legal method and Beta Test.

Personally I look at this in the same disgusted manner I look at "early access", no, I'm not going to pay a company to Beta Test for them. If they want me to Beta Test they can offer up the test product for free.

I'm a big FFG fan (and SW ofc), but not sure I like the idea of paying to test their game for them. Testing is very important but it is something THEY should pay for not us.

Plus anyone who buys the beta will then have to fork out for the proper game when its released.

Does this feel wrong to anyone else?

It feels ... yes. It's wrong, but what can ye do about it?

It's completely OPTIONAL. Pay for the rough draft early or wait and pay more for the polished book later (thanking those that paid for the book and took the time to make it better).

I'm sure they could sell PDFs if they wanted to.

As others have said, sadly it isn't You'd expect it but Disney.

The deal with the Dark Heresy II beta I mentioned was a PDF deal. I can't know, but I strongly suspect, that this is the critical thing that stops them doing the same sort of thing with the SW games.

Acquire the book from a less than legal method and Beta Test.

Let's not go down this road, especially on the company's own forums. It's not a good thing to live off other customers who fund what some take for free.

Personally I look at this in the same disgusted manner I look at "early access", no, I'm not going to pay a company to Beta test for them. If they want me to Beta Test they can offer up the test product for free.

The thing is, it *is* optional and people like myself who wait until the finished product do benefit from other's willingness to help. Objectively, the program is a good thing from my point of view. On top of that, this is somewhat different to many cases due to the degree to which the Beta is a playable and working product. People are still playing with EotE or AoR betas and still able to sell them. That's quite remarkable.

Thanks for validating FFG's business model, I look forward to your work in other areas! Maybe you can help further convince the AAA gaming industry we no longer need to own the video games we buy! That would be awesome too! Thanks again!

As I showed, people doing this are objectively a good thing for those of us who don't. I don't see a reason for such aggression.

Skip it.

I already said I was going to I was posting to see if others felt the same as me on the issue. If people are happy to do so then fair play to them (and thank you). Personally this business model irks me a little that's all - I wonder if it would be as successful for any other franchise?

I wonder if it would be as successful for any other franchise?

I'm perfectly happy with participating in the beta. Despite the minimal art (though what is there is pretty awesome), and the lack of fluff (neither of which was expected to be there), it's still a quality book. And was worth the price for me.

I also am looking forward to providing feedback and really polishing this product. As far as I can tell this book has already went through several phases of alpha testing (both internal and then with play testers), so at this point they're trying to see where things break down when the average gamer gets a hold of it.

This book is also half the price of the final product and can serve as another copy of the rules for my players to thumb through. Which is nice since my players are too broke or cheap to buy their own books.

As I showed, people doing this are objectively a good thing for those of us who don't. I don't see a reason for such aggression.

I disagree that it's a "good" thing. It validates a business model, one that in other areas is leading to no longer owning the games you buy (Steam) and the "early release, fail to release" Greenlight model.

While that would be impossible at the current level of technology (they can't take away your print books) just give it another decade (or two) when rpg publishers stop making print books* and then switch to the Stream model.

You'll no longer be able to "own the books you've purchased".

Sure, I know many will point and laugh, "Hey look at Chicken Little, sky falling much?", but this has begun in the video game market and is progressing there.

* And tech savvy publishers are already switching to no longer making print version of large swathes of their media, SJGames for instance doesn't make print versions of most of their supplements for GURPS. While I trust SJGames to not eventually turn into a big bag of dicks (not while Steve is in charge anyway), I don't trust all the other games companies. Like WotC, I can see them going the Steam route if they could** (and fatbeards everywhere cried out "Look, now they can take away my game!" and were silenced).

** And the loyal fans crying about how it was Hasbro's fault and then shelling out their hard earned to rent D&D 7e anyway, because, you know...

Personally this business model irks me a little that's all - I wonder if it would be as successful for any other franchise?

You don't pay much attention to computer games do you?

I know, you probably meant, for instance WotC or Piazo. I breathed a deep sigh of relief when WotC didn't try this "Pay to Beta/Early Release" nonsense with 5e. If they did it and made it work? Everyone would start doing it. It would open the flood gates on the practice in the rpg industry.

Picture

I ask as that's the cover art for Rise of the Runelords chapter 5...

I know the initial PF beta was free...

The physical book was $25.

Gotta love people that rationalize theft because they don't like the business model. Or maybe you don't.

The physical book was $25.

Did they do free pdf versions? I remember my group taking part in the beta (I skipped a lot of game sessions at the time) and I thought I had a pdf of it for a while.

I wonder if it would be as successful for any other franchise?

The physical book was $25.

Well, color me informed.

Did they do free pdf versions? I remember my group taking part in the beta (I skipped a lot of game sessions at the time) and I thought I had a pdf of it for a while.

The PDF for all of Pathfinders Betas have been free as far as I know--certainly for all of the rulebooks. Obviously, a printed copy cannot be free, since it costs a considerable amount of money to produce and ship.

I purchased the F&D beta because I've been waiting for this since Edge of the Empire was announced (and without Jedi). I don't expect that I'll purchase the finished product, though--hopefully a friend with more disposable income will, or I'll be able to find a PDF someone puts up and can edit in the changes to my copy of the beta with Post-It notes or some such.

If we could get a discount on the final product for having purchased the beta, I'd seriously consider it, but I'm not paying for essentially the same thing twice.

When I said 'franchise' I meant other RPGs, not computer games. I was alluding to the fact that SW is probably the biggest franchise ever (esp in the gaming industry) so the model is more likely to be successful. I was not aware it had been done for Pathfinder (in fact it is the fist time I have seen such a model, hence my original post). Not aware of any computer games that have done it either TBH, all the betas I've known have been free.

Has there been an official statement about the cost of the final F&D book? I guess a significant difference would make the beta more attractive.