I was thinking about this the other day and I can't help but feel that point-for-point and regardless of the pilot you put them on, Ion Cannons might be one of the most efficient non-EPT upgrades in the game. It's cheaper than a turret (and both sides can use it), it can be used to exhibit a remarkable level of control-aspect strategies, it's got 3 attack dice, and it still denies a bonus evade die at range 3, for when you really just need that last tap to kill something. I have used the Ion Cannon for this purpose a not-unconsequential amount of times. And even if you don't get a kill with it, if the enemy ship happened to be pointing away from the battle that round, a single ship taking a pot shot can nullify any number of squad points, depending on who had a cockpit window full of empty space.

Ion is mainly for control. You use it on A ship not only you control the movement of a ship you can stop a variety of effects such as stress removal or advanced sensors. The trade off is you do very little damage so you need something to follow up on it.

HLC is all about damage in the sacrifice of critical hit bonuses. You can modify to critical hits but that requires specific combos.

The most efficient upgrade is debatable, some might say PTL or VI as those are the most common EPT you see being used. Others might say Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade as you could put modifications on any ship. All in all when you choose upgrades and pilots it is all about what works well with each other and how it is supposed to be used.

Ion Cannons might be one of the most efficient non-EPT upgrades

Ion is mainly for control. You use it on A ship not only you control the movement of a ship you can stop a variety of effects such as stress removal or advanced sensors. The trade off is you do very little damage so you need something to follow up on it.

HLC is all about damage in the sacrifice of critical hit bonuses. You can modify to critical hits but that requires specific combos.

The most efficient upgrade is debatable, some might say PTL or VI as those are the most common EPT you see being used. Others might say Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade as you could put modifications on any ship. All in all when you choose upgrades and pilots it is all about what works well with each other and how it is supposed to be used.

Though really if we were including EPTs I'd probably agree with you for the most part about Veteran Instincts. PS 8 Interceptor for 23 points? Yes, please. Whisper firing at PS 9? Yes, please.

But really I'm wanting to open up the discussion primarily between other cannons, ordnance and, I suppose, modifications. I'd have to blatantly disagree about stealth device though. That one is too fickle to be efficient. Early on in my Winging career I had a 5 dice Soontir Fel be one-shotted 3 games in a row. Been using Shield Upgrade on him since.

Ion Cannons might be one of the most efficient non-EPT upgrades

If you put Ion cannon on M3-A it is best option (until we know stats of all new cannons). On every other ship? No

For the record ion cannons are amazing on Defenders and at only 3 points you aren't beholden to use it every turn. Just one good shot can turn a game. Well worth the points.

If you put Ion cannon on M3-A it is best option (until we know stats of all new cannons). On every other ship? No

I love running Defenders, so those new cannons have my interest. Especially if flechette cannon does what flechette torpedoes do, but in cannon form. That would make for some very interesting builds.

For the record ion cannons are amazing on Defenders and at only 3 points you aren't beholden to use it every turn. Just one good shot can turn a game. Well worth the points.

Yup. Huge fan of them, I like putting an Ion Cannon on Vessery.

I'm a big fan of ion cannons. It may do less damage, but most of the time when you take shots or actions away for enemies it pays to do a bit less damage. One of my favorite lists is 2 bwings with ion and fcs and 2 ywings with ict. (Provided the other guy isnt too noobish, that just makes it feel mean)

For 3 points I'd say it comes close, but in a game like X-Wing the Best is hard to judge because there's just too many variables.

But I'd put it in the list of upgrades that if you only use once a game for a good effect that have totally paid for itself.

The HLC is very nice, but you also need to use it a lot to really get the points out of it.

I'm a big fan of ion cannons. It may do less damage, but most of the time when you take shots or actions away for enemies it pays to do a bit less damage. One of my favorite lists is 2 bwings with ion and fcs and 2 ywings with ict. (Provided the other guy isnt too noobish, that just makes it feel mean)

Man, I'd really love to test myself against a squad like that, control type squads and Falcon squads are nonexistent in my local scene.

For 3 points I'd say it comes close, but in a game like X-Wing the Best is hard to judge because there's just too many variables.

But I'd put it in the list of upgrades that if you only use once a game for a good effect that have totally paid for itself.

The HLC is very nice, but you also need to use it a lot to really get the points out of it.

That's true, but I'd like everyone to keep in mind that my exact words were "one of the most efficient", not "the best".

You forgot to mention that almost all the ships that can take the Ion Cannon, it is a firepower downgrade. With the, soon to be, exception of the YT-2400, every ship that can equip an Ion Cannon already has 3 attack dice. So what do you get, Ion effect, no extra agility at range three, what do you lose, the ability to to do more than one damage. That is not a trivial matter, three attack dice will consistently do more than one damage.

I do like ion effect but paying points for the option to do less damage is hard for me.

The Ion Turret, not only gives a 360 firing arc, but also gives an extra attack dice to the ships that carry it. (two extra to the HWK). The problem with the Ion Turret is the Empire can't ever equip it.

So at the end of the day the real reason to take the Ion Cannon is... it is the only way the Imperials can get the Ion effect. That wouldn't be all that much of a problem in only Rebel vs Imperial engagements, but in a tournament, a Imperial player needs to plan for the possibility of Phantoms as much an a rebel player.

Firespray+Ion Turret+Tactician anybody.

The HLC is very nice, but you also need to use it a lot to really get the points out of it.

See I'm not so sure about that. Compare it to a Proton Torpedo or a Concussion Missile. They have the same number or attack dice and give another little boost to damage.

How is a HLC different? First - you get to shoot it as many times as you want. But it does cost less than two torpedoes, Secondly and almost as important, you don't need to spend you TL to use it. Maybe not as big as shooting it as many times as you want, but I think it more than makes up for the no crit + little extra boost to hit that the Proton Torpedo/Concusion Missile get.

So basically as long as you shoot the HLC twice, it is as good as at least as efficient as a Torpedo/Missile.

That's a really key point from Hrathen. The Ion Cannon, as awesome as it is, is (on average) a downgrade in damage. It is, I find, remarkably consistent at doing one damage and controlling your opponents ships, but that's not (always) enough. Large ships give it trouble and it's not as strong on ships that (unlike the defender) can't easily always keep a ship in their arc.

That's true, but I'd like everyone to keep in mind that my exact words were "one of the most efficient", not "the best".

You're right, my bad.

You forgot to mention that almost all the ships that can take the Ion Cannon, it is a firepower downgrade.

Sure, but it's not like you need to use it every turn. You may lose 1 maybe 2 damage in a game but in return gain a fair amount of control and the psychological effect of it. IMO the loss of a point or two of damage for in return a ship that can't shoot at anything is worth it.

So basically as long as you shoot the HLC twice, it is as good as at least as efficient as a Torpedo/Missile.

Being as good as a torpedo or missile is not exactly a high bar to set. I'm not saying the HLC is bad by any means, just that for 7 points, which is nearly 1/10th of your total points for a list, you really need to get a lot out of it.

Which is something you can do, so I'm not saying it's not worth the points. But compare it to a Ion Cannon that if you use once or twice you have IMO at least gotten your points back, if you only use a HLC once or twice you really haven't made good use of those points.

I was thinking about this the other day and I can't help but feel that point-for-point and regardless of the pilot you put them on, Ion Cannons might be one of the most efficient non-EPT upgrades in the game. It's cheaper than a turret (and both sides can use it), it can be used to exhibit a remarkable level of control-aspect strategies, it's got 3 attack dice, and it still denies a bonus evade die at range 3, for when you really just need that last tap to kill something. I have used the Ion Cannon for this purpose a not-unconsequential amount of times. And even if you don't get a kill with it, if the enemy ship happened to be pointing away from the battle that round, a single ship taking a pot shot can nullify any number of squad points, depending on who had a cockpit window full of empty space.

For its price and its usability, I do agree with you. It's one of the most efficient upgrades.

What's its competition from the non-EPT crowd, do you think?

I'd say some of the other really worthwhile upgrades are:

-Fire-Control System: For 2 points, you get free target locks after you shoot, which in the right situation can be a huge deal, and action economy is never a hassle in any case.

-Gunner: 5 points is getting towards the inefficient side of things when list-building, but against high agility targets, this crew can be amazing.

-Advanced Cloaking Device: 4 points is also expensive. But it's so worth it for what it gives you that it's auto-include on most if not all phantoms.

-Nien Numb: Because at 1 point, the benefit of turning all straights into greens (including debuffing ion tokens by making the 1 forward able to stress-clear) is a "can't go wrong" choice if you don't have a better crew to put in/don't have enough points for the more expensive crew members.

-Chaardan Refit: You can't argue with -2 points for cost efficiency of an upgrade, unless you want your A-Wings to have a stronger alpha strike.

But what I notice is that I am not really listing any attack upgrades. Ion Cannon is currently the most inexpensive cannon (and as far as secondaries go, is tied for the 3rd least expensive with Ion Pulse and Proton Rockets, with Flechette Torpedoes and Chaardan Refits taking 2nd and 1st respectively), has no range restriction, and rolls 3 attack dice.

But, it's limited to 1 damage, every ship that can equip it except for the YT-2400 (and soon the "Heavy Scyk", but at a cost of +2 for the title) naturally rolls 3 dice anyways (so in a vacuum, except on the two ships mentioned, the only time it's a clearly better choice than a primary attack is at Range 3, in order to deny additional evade dice), and while I'm not saying it's not good, the ion effect is not quite powerful enough to be consistently game-winning on its own, otherwise we'd likely be seeing a lot more squads of Gold Squadron + Ion Cannon Turret x4. (Although I'll admit one possibility that we're not seeing a lot of this because people think it's a load of cheese and I'd be inclined to agree with that assessment.)

And it sees a lot of competition from the admittedly very pricey HLC, because 4 attack dice that can all deal damage is a more friendly proposition than 3 attack dice that can give you 1 damage + certainty of your opponent's maneuver next turn (except large ships, of course). Rolling 4 dice over 2 consecutive turns is absolutely a better prospect for damage output than rolling 3 dice limited to 1 damage on 1 turn then 3 (4 if Range 1) dice for the following turn. (Add into that that the time-limited context of tournaments and it also helps explain why ions are not dominating the meta. Control strategies take time that you might not have the luxury for.)

I'm a fan of Ion Cannon and Tactician. Yes, it's situational, but it works well for 5 points on the ships that can take it.

I like it.

I used a 4 blues with ion cannon squad at my local once and everybody scoffed at it until I was easily ioning ships at range 3 and setting up range 1 shots out of arc with multiple B-wings and stranding chewy on an asteroid for half of a game. Not a great squad anymore because of predator, but in the pre-predator days it was great. Might have to try ions on defenders.

Help us MajorJuggler, you're our only hope!

I'm kind of 'meh' when it comes to the ion cannon. I've gone an entire game while only using it once or not at all. Its not that its not useful, but there are a lot of times where your primary is just a better option. I think on a two attack ship it will be very good though.

If you can capitalize on the control aspects, the damage output you lose will be nothing compared to damage output your opponent loses.

I've seen a 3 defender with ions list, completely dominate a game from the first turn of firing. His opponents ships got one attack each and then spent 5 rounds dying... That was far from a typical occurence.

Anyways sacrificing one, two or three damage to deny an enemy ships shots is often well worth it. It also punishes an opponent for who ignores the consequences. Personally I've force a significant number of reasonably healthy (3+ hp left) ships of the board because they got to close to the edge without considering their facing.

Honestly I feel the biggest problem with Ion Cannons is that it can feel like a "dirty" tactic especially when one player is taking their full turn and the other player is just rolling defense dice... I've done that to other players a couple of times now and I probably don't feel as guilty as I should for spoiling their games.

One of my more personal favorite lists right now (guilty feelings aside) is 3 Y-wings with ICT and Engine upgrades. If my opponent brings less than 3 ships, they're in a lot of trouble.

I'm also looking forward to the YT-2400 and Outrider title... forget Dash and HLC, I'll take the cheapest YT-2400 and slap Outrider and an Ion Cannon on it. I suppose its a good thing Outrider is unique...

You forgot to mention that almost all the ships that can take the Ion Cannon, it is a firepower downgrade. With the, soon to be, exception of the YT-2400, every ship that can equip an Ion Cannon already has 3 attack dice. So what do you get, Ion effect, no extra agility at range three, what do you lose, the ability to to do more than one damage. That is not a trivial matter, three attack dice will consistently do more than one damage.

I do like ion effect but paying points for the option to do less damage is hard for me.

The Ion Turret, not only gives a 360 firing arc, but also gives an extra attack dice to the ships that carry it. (two extra to the HWK). The problem with the Ion Turret is the Empire can't ever equip it.

So at the end of the day the real reason to take the Ion Cannon is... it is the only way the Imperials can get the Ion effect. That wouldn't be all that much of a problem in only Rebel vs Imperial engagements, but in a tournament, a Imperial player needs to plan for the possibility of Phantoms as much an a rebel player.

Firespray+Ion Turret+Tactician anybody.

Those are good points, but there are counter points to be made.

For starters, it's not the only way for Imperials to get the Ion. We can also take Ion Pulse Missiles, and many of the Imperial ships capable of taking missiles are, I would say, superior all-round craft to the missile launching counterparts on the Rebel side. (That last statement however is an opinion, not a fact.)

Second, I can't totally concede that you're losing damage potential. Rather, you're trading decreased damage potential in Round X for increased damage in Round Y, with the possibility that the ioned ship cannot return fire because they could not come about to get a shot. Add to that the pivotal play of ioning a ship onto an asteroid, and trading (possibly) more damage for setting up a range 1 shot (possibly from multiple ships) against an opponent who is denied actions and the ability to fire before they are even destroyed, this can easily be worth the loss. Ionization also denies the use of certain moves and abilities, like anything that requires the use of a maneuver dial (decloaking, bombs and advanced sensors come to mind).

One of my more personal favorite lists right now (guilty feelings aside) is 3 Y-wings with ICT and Engine upgrades. If my opponent brings less than 3 ships, they're in a lot of trouble.

I've faced that very list before, with Rexler and two Outmaneuver RGPs. It was a massacre. Being Ioned actually helped, as the Ys couldn't outstall the Interceptors. I averaged one Y wing per turn, and never lost an Interceptor. Still, that's a highly specialized list, and many opponents of the Ys won't be able to cope.

Anyways sacrificing one, two or three damage to deny an enemy ships shots is often well worth it. It also punishes an opponent for who ignores the consequences. Personally I've force a significant number of reasonably healthy (3+ hp left) ships of the board because they got to close to the edge without considering their facing.

It's also helpful when they are considering their facing, and as such they opt out of normally sound maneuvers because those maneuvers put them a turn or two away from an asteroid, and they weren't willing to take the chance of being ioned into it. My favorite time this happened, an opponent turned Tycho away from one, only to be ioned two rounds in a row, plow into another asteroid, roll a crit, and get a direct hit. it felt so very much like the Austin Powers bit with the steam roller...

One of my more personal favorite lists right now (guilty feelings aside) is 3 Y-wings with ICT and Engine upgrades. If my opponent brings less than 3 ships, they're in a lot of trouble.

I've faced that very list before, with Rexler and two Outmaneuver RGPs. It was a massacre. Being Ioned actually helped, as the Ys couldn't outstall the Interceptors. I averaged one Y wing per turn, and never lost an Interceptor. Still, that's a highly specialized list, and many opponents of the Ys won't be able to cope.

Anyways sacrificing one, two or three damage to deny an enemy ships shots is often well worth it. It also punishes an opponent for who ignores the consequences. Personally I've force a significant number of reasonably healthy (3+ hp left) ships of the board because they got to close to the edge without considering their facing.

It's also helpful when they are considering their facing, and as such they opt out of normally sound maneuvers because those maneuvers put them a turn or two away from an asteroid, and they weren't willing to take the chance of being ioned into it. My favorite time this happened, an opponent turned Tycho away from one, only to be ioned two rounds in a row, plow into another asteroid, roll a crit, and get a direct hit. it felt so very much like the Austin Powers bit with the steam roller...

Whelp, your results may vary... My most frequent opponent usually fields very similar lists to what you described and he has good reason to hate my 3 Y-wing list. If the Y-wings facing is even remotely similar to that of a nearby enemy ship, something has gone terribly wrong. Of course it almost certainly helps that I play Interceptors too and that I've been facing off against lists featuring Soontir Fel on a regular basis. I know what an Interceptor (and Phantoms) can and can't do, plus a PS 10 Horton Salm w/ two loads of torps is a powerful contigency to any positioning errors I make. More than one ship has failed to live long enough to capitalize on outmaneuvering one of my Gold Squadron Pilots.