Forgive me if this has been clarified already, but is there an order of operations (to use the mathematical term) when calculating defence dice?

For example, Expose on a normal Decimator being attacked at Range 3:

- is expose applied first as it changes agility, therefore leaving the VT-49 with its usual 0 agility, after which then you add on the range modifier and roll one dice?

- are they both applied simultaneously? Therefore leaving the VT-49 with no dice at any range.

Then further, Kenkirk with his ability activated:

- if he used Expose, would this penalty activate first, before his pilot ability? Leaving him with the perks of Expose and 1 agility?

- do they activate at the same time? Or his pilot ability first?

Similar issues would be the Epic ships attacked at Range 3/through an asteroid by Wedge or an Outmaneuver

The Range 3 answer is easy... Expose modifies agility, range mod adds dice. So Expose reduces to 0 (which stays at zero) and then adds a die. Separate modifiers that don't directly interact with each other. This also applies to the follow-on question about Epic - Wedge and Outmaneuver reduce Agility, which huge ships don't have, so it stays at zero and they'll get the range modifier.

The second is more interesting... Expose is an ongoing ability, so I believe it should work against whatever the current value is. If it's zero, it stays zero. If Kenkirk's ability kicks in, then it becomes 1 and Expose has something to work against, dropping it back to zero.

I don't think there's any defined order of operations for ongoing abilities like that - they're always in effect, and act as such.

In the second example, wouldn't the basic concept of "negative trumps positive when simultaneous affects occur" be brought into play?

The rules on Page 12 seem to infer that card abilities are used to modify agility first, then add the Range 3 Primary modifier after.

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to
the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on
its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities
that allow him to roll additional (or fewer)
dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by
the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1
additional defense die.

So by that, I'd think that it would be:
Base 0
Kenkirk +1 to 1
Expose trumps so -1 back to 0
Range 3 so +1 back to 1

Yes? No?

In the second example, wouldn't the basic concept of "negative trumps positive when simultaneous affects occur" be brought into play?

The rules on Page 12 seem to infer that card abilities are used to modify agility first, then add the Range 3 Primary modifier after.

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to

the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on

its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities

that allow him to roll additional (or fewer)

dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by

the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1

additional defense die.

So by that, I'd think that it would be:

Base 0

Kenkirk +1 to 1

Expose trumps so -1 back to 0

Range 3 so +1 back to 1

Yes? No?

Range doesn't add to your agility, it adds a defense dice. It's a small but important difference for this situation.

You calculate your agility by adding up all the bonuses and penalties. Any agility lower than 0 is treated as 0.

Then if at range 3, you roll 1 more defense dice than you normally would.

You calculate your agility by adding up all the bonuses and penalties. Any agility lower than 0 is treated as 0.

Source?

In the second example, wouldn't the basic concept of "negative trumps positive when simultaneous affects occur" be brought into play?

There really isn't any such concept. We don't have a defined order of operations for which of the ongoing modifiers is applied first, but I don't think it matters.

Kenkirk and Expose both provide ongoing effects. Both are constantly doing their thing to affect the ship's agility. Expose's "not less than zero" is the only thing that's screwing with it, but I don't think it makes a difference, because once Kenkirk's ability kicks in, the agility is no longer zero, and Expose's modifier can then affect it.

There's a complicated parallel case with Expose and Structural Damage (I think that's the Agility reducer), but we'll leave it out because it's kinda messy. I do think it points to the same answer though.

You calculate your agility by adding up all the bonuses and penalties. Any agility lower than 0 is treated as 0.

Source?

Math 101?

Rulebook page 12

During this step, the defender calculates how many During this step, players may resolve abilities and

defense dice to use and then rolls the dice. spend tokens that allow them to modify defense dice.

The defender rolls a number of defense dice equal to

the ship’s agility value (the green number shown on

its Ship card and ship token).

The defender resolves any card abilities

that allow him to roll additional (or fewer)

dice. Also, if he is targeted at Range 3 by

the attacker’s primary weapon, he rolls 1

additional defense die.

After calculating the number of defense dice,

the defender takes that number of green

defense dice and rolls them.

Right, I looked through all of that before I asked. There's actually nothing in the core rulebook, that I found, which establishes how agility is calculated. Effects which add or remove dice are not the same as effects which alter agility.

To be perfectly fair, the quoted rules section says nothing about a lower limit for agility. Nor have I found any such notion in the FAQ.

A more pratical view how ever would sugest is is very hard to roll a negative number of dice. So let's just assume agility can never go into the negatives to avoid that world imploding consequence of the alternative

To be perfectly fair, the quoted rules section says nothing about a lower limit for agility. Nor have I found any such notion in the FAQ.

Every ability which reduces agility specifies a lower bound of zero. It would probably be better as a core rule, but its absence doesn't actually affect anything.

To be perfectly fair, the quoted rules section says nothing about a lower limit for agility. Nor have I found any such notion in the FAQ.

Every ability which reduces agility specifies a lower bound of zero. It would probably be better as a core rule, but its absence doesn't actually affect anything.

Not expose as far as I can see.

To be perfectly fair, the quoted rules section says nothing about a lower limit for agility. Nor have I found any such notion in the FAQ.

A more pratical view how ever would sugest is is very hard to roll a negative number of dice. So let's just assume agility can never go into the negatives to avoid that world imploding consequence of the alternative

I don't think anyone is arguing in favor of sub-zero values. There are really only two ways this scenario can be executed: negative effects occur first, reducing agility to a minimum of zero, then positive effects occur afterwards. That would mean Expose + Kenkirk leaves the ship with an agility value of 1 (0-1=0, then 0+1=1). Or: the game keeps a running tally of all effects simultaneously, cancelling them out on a 1 for 1 basis as appropriate. The problem is that there's no guidance in the rules or the FAQ that indicate which way we're supposed to do it. Personally, I lean more towards the latter, but that's my experience with another game speaking. Heaven help us if we have to start deciphering layers.

To be perfectly fair, the quoted rules section says nothing about a lower limit for agility. Nor have I found any such notion in the FAQ.

Every ability which reduces agility specifies a lower bound of zero. It would probably be better as a core rule, but its absence doesn't actually affect anything.

Not expose as far as I can see.

Huh. How about that? Guess that shows how often I ever look at Expose

That really simplifies the whole thing then. +1 and -1 in effect at the same time = zero.

That really simplifies the whole thing then. +1 and -1 in effect at the same time = zero.

Is this an assumption, a preference, or am I still issuing something?

what really muddies this, is abailities like Wedge and Outmaneuver, that puts a cap on the Agility. Because then the order in which abilities are resolved all of a sudden matter. And I dont think it should. The capping text was probably put there because someone realized that you could end up with a negative Agility.

Expose on the other hand can lower the Agility below 0, so in the end we would still end up with a negative value. I think the overall intention was to avoid the 'picking up a negative number of dice'. Which should be applied to the end result, but any intermediate results when calculating the agility.

But I agree after trolling through rulebook, FAQ and card texts that this one is quite unclear

If you really want me to blow your mind, I can show you the layer rules for Magic. It might provide some insight for anyone who can't understand how simultaneous effects can be applied in separate order.

As for Expose and Kenkirk, Kenkirk's ability is applied when he gets the damage card and lasts until the end of the game. The Expose penalty is applied when the ability is activated. Thus, Expose will reduce the agility value to zero after Kenkirk raises it to 1. Net result is a zero. You'd get the same result if you put a stealth device on a Decimator and then used Expose.

In the second example, wouldn't the basic concept of "negative trumps positive when simultaneous affects occur" be brought into play?

I want to expound a bit on what Buhallin said because this does come up from time to time. There is no such concept, what people seem to confuse is the rule about maneuvers and want to apply that in a general sense.

The rule stats that if you have 2 effects one that increase the difficulty of a maneuver, and one that decreases it, the effect that increases it trumps the one that lowers it. But that is the only time such a thing is mentioned. There is actually no over all concept that negative trumps positive.

As for Expose and Kenkrik, I'd agree that they cancel each other out. It's the most logical method because Kenkrik is an ongoing effect, like Stealth Device is, as long as the conditions are met, you get a +1 to agility. Expose on the other hand is an action so when you use it then and only then do you get the -1 to agility.

I agree that the "negative before positive" comes from maneuvers. In my own personal thought process, when there's an established process for resolving an issue for one situation in a confined game environment (i.e.: the rules), it can potentially be applied to another section of the rules. Thus, what applies in my mind for maneuvers, would apply to another situation such as calculation of dice totals. We've had this debate before and I'm fairly certain I know who will disagree with me on it.

The core of the original question though was what happens at Range 3. I think we all agree, it appears, that Kenkirk plus Expose cancel each other out with a net result of zero dice. It still seems, to me, that the card affects are done first, and then after that the range modifiers are used.

The core of the original question though was what happens at Range 3. I think we all agree, it appears, that Kenkirk plus Expose cancel each other out with a net result of zero dice. It still seems, to me, that the card affects are done first, and then after that the range modifiers are used.

I addressed this in my first post, and there's absolutely no question on it.

Kenkirk and Expose both modify agility, but range modifiers add dice. Your defense roll starts with your agility, and then you add or remove dice as needed. They affect completely different things.

As for Expose and Kenkrik, I'd agree that they cancel each other out. It's the most logical method because Kenkrik is an ongoing effect, like Stealth Device is, as long as the conditions are met, you get a +1 to agility. Expose on the other hand is an action so when you use it then and only then do you get the -1 to agility.

Only thing I disagree with here is that I think Expose sets up an ongoing effect as well. Just because it's an action doesn't mean it can't do this - it's how Marksmanship works, creating an effect which can change dice for the rest of the round.

it's how Marksmanship works, creating an effect which can change dice for the rest of the round.

Sure, but it's still an optional effect, you don't have to use Expose, even if you could, in the case of Kenkrick, his effect is always on, where as Expose is only on from the time you take the action until the end of the round. So there's time in each round in which it doesn't go into effect.

it's how Marksmanship works, creating an effect which can change dice for the rest of the round.

Sure, but it's still an optional effect, you don't have to use Expose, even if you could, in the case of Kenkrick, his effect is always on, where as Expose is only on from the time you take the action until the end of the round. So there's time in each round in which it doesn't go into effect.

True... But I don't think that really has any impact on anything. Expose is a constant -1, it doesn't just set to X where X=Agility-1. My point is that however it's triggered, Expose is an ongoing effect just like Kenkirk is.

True... But I don't think that really has any impact on anything.

I agree in this case it doesn't change anything.