Background: In my game the players are up against a bunch of "Sith" - not really Sith though, but a group of Force users intent on rebuilding the ancient Sith Empire. They have a houserule skill:

Sorcery (Willpower) :

Sorcery is to Lore what Streetwise is to Underworld, if you get my meaning. It's like Mechanics, but specifically mystical, and is used in-game to perform certain "rituals" with various effects (think Nightsisters/Witches of Dathomir, or when Sidious and Dooku were trying to mess with Yoda's mind).

For certain types of Force users, Sorcery is very important. While these are predominantly Dark Side Force users, I don't believe it must be that way. I think the Witches of Dathomir may be an example here.

I'd like to know what people think of this, how it might be used, and what it's limits are. The game rules for Mechanics tend to be more about modding than actual creating and inventing, due to the narrative nature of the game. I think that Sorcery will follow a similar "narrative bent", but like having rolls for things so that I know whether the players are in time to prevent the evil nasty thing from happening, or just a bit late, as is so often the case.

I think most games could get by putting this in with discipline.

But I do like the idea very much. I imagine it being used with sith alchemy as well (maybe swapping willpower for intellect in that case).

A game with a heavy focus on the dichotomy of light and dark, or one just one that wants to go very deep into the mysticism of force traditions, would work great with this custom skill.

Sure... it looks good.

It's tricky. I don't like creating new skills, since it is usually either done to circumvent several skills, or because people don't think abstractly enough. If you've played enough palladium you know what I mean.

Honestly I would look to know: lore and discipline. I would actually make it primarily Lore, as unlike force powers it's not a quick rush of power, but a continual application of formula.

In the Book of Sith, and other EU legends material, force use is ritualized primarily because it allows the less powerful to perform feats far beyond the normal level of their skill. So using knowledge: Lore and intelligence to reflectt sorcery as opposed to discipline, which is the jedi/sith way, would make for an interesting separation in these two concepts.

My credits. take 'em or leave 'em.

That might be cool skill. Lore would work, but it doesn't show that it's a Force thing. Maybe it could be a unique skill with Force Rating as the "characteristic" showing that Palpatine could create life, but a youngling couldn't.

Side note, now I'm thinking of a spec tree for alchemy. Don't know how it would work at all, but it sounded cool in my head.

In my mind it's not a force thing, but more a rote memorization and ability to follow a specific process thing.

You may use the force (and that's a big may) but in the end it's your specific application of gesture, spoken incantation, or other ritualized component that makes the effect what it is.

Besides, the new canon has intimated that magic (as the nightsisters practice it) is not actually force based. I don't like that (like... I really don't like that) but currently that is what the official response is (see wookiepedia entry for "magic" under the canon entry and it's associated sources).

So Lore seems a good compromise, both for flavor, and for mechanical balance. A whole new skill isn't a bad choice, but see my previous post for why I don't like adding more skills.

I feel it's different enough from Discipline that it should not fall under Discipline. For example, we have the skill Coordination and we have the skill Stealth. Stealth could be pretty well subsumed into Coordination if we wanted to think that way. But a person doing Sorcery is doing something that a Disciplined person may not have any capability to do.

Perhaps, as some have mentioned, it's a more practice-by-wrote mechanism, in which case the it should be based on Intellect. I hadn't done it that way since I felt that was too similar to Mechanics.

I've seen the arguments about the Witches/Nightsisters using "magic, not the Force". Frankly, I see no need to introduce more metaphysics into the Star Wars Universe. It could be that traditional "Force Users" tap the metaphysical differently than the "Witches" do, but it's the same source in the end. Call it what you like. We even see Darth Sidious and Count Dooku standing around a bubbling cauldron near the end of the Clone Wars, so I'm pretty sure it's all the same.

It's tricky. I don't like creating new skills, since it is usually either done to circumvent several skills, or because people don't think abstractly enough. If you've played enough palladium you know what I mean.

Honestly I would look to know: lore and discipline. I would actually make it primarily Lore, as unlike force powers it's not a quick rush of power, but a continual application of formula.

In the Book of Sith, and other EU legends material, force use is ritualized primarily because it allows the less powerful to perform feats far beyond the normal level of their skill. So using knowledge: Lore and intelligence to reflectt sorcery as opposed to discipline, which is the jedi/sith way, would make for an interesting separation in these two concepts.

My credits. take 'em or leave 'em.

In general, I agree.

In this case, there were two reasons I did this:

1) I wanted a game-related mechanism whereby these people were doing things that were not "possible" in RAW, and not available to the players. While I could simply use GM Fiat and call it a day, having a process that required rolls allows possibilities for interaction that are not simply GM arbitration - the dice have a say, and that allows for different possibilities.

2) I feel that Discipline had become a way to "Roll for Willpower." There are only two other Willpower skills: Coercion and Vigilance. Everything that comes under the heading of "Self Control" is Discipline, and I feel that is simply too wide a scope for one skill. It encompasses everything from not fleeing in the face of danger to Force power arbitration. While I have already said that Sorcery (in my view) is a manifestation of the Force, it works in a different way and has significantly different outcomes. I feel that a Disciplined Force User would not be able to walk up to a Witches cauldron and start casting spells.

(An aside: Why isn't Lore sufficient? In general, Knowledge skills do not do things. It's an Education check to remember how an engine works, but a Mechanics check to actually fix or build one.)

The Force, as I see it represented in-game, does things.

Sorcery, as I see it, makes things that do things. Create a voodoo doll, make the dead walk, even make cybernetics (both Maul and Vader), summon Sithspawn, and so on. I could see an argument that Sith use Sorcery to create their lightsaber crystals, and make their Holocrons, though I'm not sure how well supported such ideas are.

Well the Sith DO use sorcery, but not in their LS's and Holocron's.

In the clone wars lost missions S6e13, Palpatine uses a sorcery to spy on Yoda, though for him it's still using the force.

According to canon, the nightsisters use a magic not related to the force. And it is highly ritualistic.

IMO, I prefer the thinking of the Legends EU, which is it's all the force, but the force can create powerful effects. Teleportation, serious body modification, etc.

The Sith incorporate both into their practices, while the Jedi do not, and since the Jedi are basically the authority on the force, it's hard to tell what is inuniverse non-sense, and what is objective fact.

In any case, Like I said, I'm no fan of "magic" in my SW either.

For your table, make sorcery. I would base it on Int or Pres (Not will, though YMMV) and I would stat up rituals similar to force powers, but often requiring time frames that prevent combat use. You're call. If you need any help I'll gladly off thoughts.

After reading the Darth Bane trilogy I like the idea of having Sorcery something different.

Zannah, Darth Bane's apprentice has the ability to use Sith Sorcery, but Darth Bane never really has the ability. He understands the knowledge of it, but he cannot perform it.

The only way to mechanically separate out the "talent" for it, would either be by making talents for it. Talent-wise I would almost need a full tree just for a Sith Sorcerer, or maybe a Force power that is "sorcery"?

I just can't see it reduced to discipline or another "skill" when sorcery isn't just knowledge, Bane had the knowledge but he could not perform it at all.

Again, that could be represented by the use of a skill as knowledge, but also ritual style powers as ways to spend xp and invest in the rituals.

Similar to the force regimens from the saga book. Something that can be performed during "game time" that can provide a static bonus, or some other effect (either with a penalty for failure, or with commitment of force dice). You could go universal spec as well, but that seems like there would potentially be filler, and bloat, and a lot more effort designing those than a "simple" power tree.

After reading the Darth Bane trilogy I like the idea of having Sorcery something different.

Zannah, Darth Bane's apprentice has the ability to use Sith Sorcery, but Darth Bane never really has the ability. He understands the knowledge of it, but he cannot perform it.

The only way to mechanically separate out the "talent" for it, would either be by making talents for it. Talent-wise I would almost need a full tree just for a Sith Sorcerer, or maybe a Force power that is "sorcery"?

I just can't see it reduced to discipline or another "skill" when sorcery isn't just knowledge, Bane had the knowledge but he could not perform it at all.

It would fall under the mystic career and would be a dark version of the seer I would think.

For this game it would be its own specilization and talent tree. Heavy on strain to cast spells. To me the nightsisters are using the force but a corrupted form using mostly the darkside.

But yes it would be lore to activate the spell but force dice, talent, and strain to power them

I'm really not seeing another skill just to cover using the Force.

There's already Discipline, which covers not only mental discipline in the face of danger/threats, but also the ability to focus one's efforts and will to a specific goal. And Knowledge: Lore covers the "ancient secrets" bit as well.

In spite of what Mother Talzin professed, pretty much all "magic" in the Star Wars setting boils down to being a manifestation of The Force. It may have different trappings, but it's still The Force.

In Legends material that is no longer canonical. The current canon has made no such claim. It has been called only "Dark Magick."

Demigonis speaks true. Now this is likely IMO to be clarified by later products, but currently, magic =/= force.

It's counter intuitive to me too, but yeah. If in doubt, see the wookiepedia page for magic and look under the canon heading.

Since we're talking house rules anyway, I don't think it's an issue to equate Magick with the Force. By its very nature, the RPG is not exactly canon to begin with.

Right, this is a house rule that's just a shim to say "these people have capabilities you can't have, but they're not so different that you have no recourse." I have no intention of making a "Sorcery" specialization or Force Power tree, although I can see where that might be good if FFG wanted to address this sort of Force usage ("Magic", with or without extra letters, "Sorcery", or whatever) in some later supplement. Who knows?

So, as GM, to make sure I don't accidentally the game, it's in my best interest to create a framework which lets Sorcery be powerful and unique, without being overly so or, on the other side, trivially ignored. Currently this has only been used to narrative effect - things the PCs saw happen but were not in a position to do anything about. However, at some time in the future the PCs will be in among in all, whether it be a straight-up-fight, preventing some dark ritual, or even finding a way to turn back what's already been done.

I figured I'd throw this out there and see what people who don't have any specific scenario in mind might think of it.

And again, what does adding a new skill, that from the sounds of it is mostly for NPCs, really add to the game?

You can just as easily use the existing mechanics, giving these NPCs ranks in Discipline and Knowledge: Lore, call them "sorcerers" or "shamans" or "witch doctors" or whatever, say that they use "magic" and call it a day.

Talent: Force Sorcery (ranked)

Specialties: Witch (Seeker), Alchemist (Counsular), Sorcerer (Mystic)

When you take this talent, select a force power tree. You may roll (Inteligence)Lore instead of any Discipline, Leadership, or Vigilance rolls required as part of the power. Each time you select this talent, you may select a new force power to apply it to.

So a "Magic" user is paying a talent tax to consolidate force powers under a rote memorization based Lore skill.

And again, what does adding a new skill, that from the sounds of it is mostly for NPCs, really add to the game?

You can just as easily use the existing mechanics, giving these NPCs ranks in Discipline and Knowledge: Lore, call them "sorcerers" or "shamans" or "witch doctors" or whatever, say that they use "magic" and call it a day.

Because I view them as different things. Perhaps someone is very disciplined but not good at "magic", or the other way around.

Because I view them as different things. Perhaps someone is very disciplined but not good at "magic", or the other way around..

"Only different in your mind."

- Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

Mechanically, adding a Sorcery skill is no different than using the pre-existing skill of Discipline, so really you're just hamfisting a new skill into the system for no reason than to ham-fist a new skill into the system.

But if you're really that despearate to use a skill other than Discipline for triggering various Force powers, particularly if it's a "master skill" that overrides whatever skill is listed for any and all Force powers, there's not much anyone's going to say that's going to make you see otherwise.

I (obviously, as I am repeating myself again) disagree. Currently Discipline is treated as the skill for all things related to self control, and I feel that is insufficient. The example I have used before is that, by the same logic, there is no need for the Stealth skill, as Coordination would cover it.

A military man with great discipline would not necessarily make a good sorcerer, and it might not be required that a good sorcerer is particularly disciplined. People of great passion are not often very disciplined.

Whether you agree or not is beside the point of this thread, which is to discuss how I might use such a skill in-game to provide challenges and obstacles that can be overcome. The point of the skill is to ground these challenges in the game system, and prevent it from being unbalanced. I can do anything with GM Fiat, but that isn't necessarily a good or desirable thing.

I would say that, adapt it to your game and the importance it has. Its like Handle Animal from Survival and Perform from Charm. Survival is enough in general therms, but if in your game Handle have a lot of importance, then create it. The same with Perform.

I have to say that in my games I'm using "Spiritual Rating", an alter-form from Force Rating. People who uses "Dark Magics" and ichor ennergy or similar has this other Rating. Because I consider that they get they power from another "source".

- A Jedi/Dark Jedi will be 3 (FR) / 0 (SR)

- A Sith will be 2 (FR) / 1 (SR)

- A Nightsister will be 1 or 0 (FR) / 3 (SR)

Until a clarification from canon and after watching TCW season 6, well, seems too different source to separate it.

Also I considered that some powers are prequisite Spiritual Rating instead FR like "Heal/Harm". I haven't see any "non-nightsister" healing (Obi-Wan in Ep 3 & 4???). Heal is the regeneration and Harm is the "Voodoo".

Having not seen the episode in question yet, only seeing the quotes brought up as evidence I had just figured Talzin was just a naturally weak Force user who had enhanced her abilities through performance enhancing drugs and rituals where, perhaps, she feeds on the power of the other participants, which seems like likely uses of the "Dark Magicks" the Nightsisters seemed to practice.

Talking about this with a friend who had seen the episode, he posited an idea I thought was even better, wherein Talzin's "Magick" was more of a mental block due to the way she was trained. Sort of like when Yoda was teaching Luke by lifting the X-Wing. Luke did not believe he could do it, so he failed. Talzin does not believe her abilities work without "Magick" and ritual behind them and, seeing that the Jedi and Sith don't rely on such things, see her abilities as different from the Force.

I couldn't find any clips of Talzin speaking the quotes given by Wookieepedia (was trying to get a better context of how they were used) but I did find one scene that surprised me in that I hadn't seen it quoted in any of these Nightsister Dark Magick discussions yet:

Mother Talzin: Your power is no match for my Magicks!

Mace Windu: Magick is only an illusion.

Until someone official clarifies things, I, personally, will defer to the wisdom of Master Windu.

As to the crux of this topic; I think the idea is decent, and, with involving the dice, quite fair. Just be careful, as players are always a curious bunch and, like the Lightsaber skill, which was also primarily for NPCs in the previous two games, may try to learn it themselves, if only to figure out how to better counter it.

As to suggestions of what it might be able to do beyond what we've seen? I got little... We've already seen it cause intense pain and damage with likelihood of death over a vast distance using an indirect connection, as well as raising specially prepared corpses to fight (none of the newly dead sisters appeared to get up, so I assume they need to be prepared), seems like the sky may be the limit. Maybe hexing an area? The sorcerors want to deny use of a location and so pull the traditional hex on it; nothing grows there, machines tend to break down, animals steer clear of it or become hostile, maybe even Force powers become unreliable (for anyone else at least, the sorceror's abilities work fine).