So, I was looking at the rules for Niman Disciple and Soresu Defender, and I noticed that the Niman Disciple had Willpower become their Lightsaber Characteristic, while Soresu Defender gets Intellect. However, the description for a Consular (which Niman Disciple falls under) says that Consulars use intelligenc to solve problems. Furthermore, Gaurdians (which Soresu Defender falls under) are basically Jedi police, meaning that Willpower seems more important. A Niman Disciple is also a disciple of something (whatever Niman is), meaning that they would have to learn, which relates to Intellect. Also, the Soresu Defender is often putting themself into danger, as their description says, meaning that the Willpower to stay in that danger is more important than Intellect, which while useful, is not as sensible as Willpower.

To put it short: the Niman Disciple Technique talent should have the user be able to use Intellect as their base Lightsaber skill, and the Soresu Defender Technique should have the user be able to use Willpower, basically switching he uses of the talents.

Thoughts?

Yeah... that ones been annoying me too.

I don't think every form is going to neatly fit into its career, or every characteristic fitting perfectly into its specific form.

In my opinion, Willpower makes better sense for the Niman Disciple than it does for Soresu. FFG seems to be using the lore of each Form as their primary source of inspiration for the trees. In the lore, Niman is the balanced form. It utilizes aspects from all 5 other forms (ignoring Juyo/Vapaad), and blends them into one form. But more than that, it encourages a liberal mixture of Force powers such (primarily telekinetic maneuvers). Niman was also said to be a form that most Jedi could easily pick up (though mastering the form took at least a decade).

I believe that last point may have had a factor when FFG chose to use Willpower for Niman. In another words, the form was meant to synergize well with Force powers, making willpower a natural choice. If the "Disciple"* part is bothering you, that can easily be changed to some other word that does not have a scholarly connotation.

Although, the lore for Soresu also encourages heavy amount of meditation when trying to master that form. So that would be a pretty good argument for switching them up. I'm just not seeing a compelling argument for Niman using Intellect.

I don't see a problem with it, but I can see where you're coming from.

From a synergy standpoint, Niman Technique matches well with Discipline; something Consulars are likely to have a high stat in if they're going a Force Wizard route. But now that I see it, that choice doesn't pair off with much else. Soresu Technique matches well with Medicine from the Protector tree and nothing else from the Guardian trees.

Makashi Technique matches well with Charm, and Negotiation from Advisor

Ataru matches with Coordination and Piloting, as well as Ranged (Heavy & Light) and Stealth

Shien matches with Skulduggery, Deception, and Streetwise

If swapped, Niman Technique would pair well with all the Knowledge skills Consulars have access too, as well as Medicine for Healer and Astrogation for Sage. Willpower would match well for Vigilance and Discipline for the Guardian, so there's little boost to skill synergy. However it would boost the Guardian's Strain Threshold, which would help power Parry and Reflect and other defensive talents, and support the theme of Soresu which is waiting out your opponent to make a mistake. The Masters of Soresu are those who can keep that defense up and wait out their opponents with their very strenuous style.

Aright; you sold me. I agree they should be swapped.

Although, the lore for Soresu also encourages heavy amount of meditation when trying to master that form. So that would be a pretty good argument for switching them up. I'm just not seeing a compelling argument for Niman using Intellect.

Here's one; Niman was a form that's based on memorization of basic, standard moves and is easy to learn so its practitioners can focus more time on other things like meditation, study, and social skills.

It's a form about pattern memory and study. Quick thinking Jedi who see an attack coming in and can mentally recall the proper sequence to counter such an attack. Seeing their opponent's stance and defenses and evaluating which strike to best use.

To me, that's Intellect.

Although, the lore for Soresu also encourages heavy amount of meditation when trying to master that form. So that would be a pretty good argument for switching them up. I'm just not seeing a compelling argument for Niman using Intellect.

Here's one; Niman was a form that's based on memorization of basic, standard moves and is easy to learn so its practitioners can focus more time on other things like meditation, study, and social skills.

It's a form about pattern memory and study. Quick thinking Jedi who see an attack coming in and can mentally recall the proper sequence to counter such an attack. Seeing their opponent's stance and defenses and evaluating which strike to best use.

To me, that's Intellect.

You have a good point. I'm still not sold, but I am not closed to the idea of swapping them either.

You have a good point. I'm still not sold, but I am not closed to the idea of swapping them either.

Kinda how I feel.

If Nimian loses its superior Discipline focus (it's ability to dump everything into willpower), and wants to remain the "caster" saber discipline, what are your thoughts on making FR2 easier to access in Nimian's talent tree?

I could see them being swapped and it making sense, particularly for Soresu being an "endurance" Form in that one of it's key goals is to outlast your opponent, so being based upon a Characteristic that directly impacts Strain Threshold makes sense.

Same with Niman being Intellect based, in that it reflects the student using basic understanding of established moves but not with a lot of improvisation in combat that the other Forms would encourage; sort of like the difference between a kendo student that's only done drills in a classroom vs. a kendo student that's done actual sparring outside of kendo's formal/rigid strictures.

But since Niman Disciple is also about using the Force in combat, I can see why Willpower was chosen for Niman Technique, to provide synergy with Discipline (and thus Willpower) being a major trait for a Force user that uses Move in combat.

I could see them being swapped and it making sense, particularly for Soresu being an "endurance" Form in that one of it's key goals is to outlast your opponent, so being based upon a Characteristic that directly impacts Strain Threshold makes sense.

Same with Niman being Intellect based, in that it reflects the student using basic understanding of established moves but not with a lot of improvisation in combat that the other Forms would encourage; sort of like the difference between a kendo student that's only done drills in a classroom vs. a kendo student that's done actual sparring outside of kendo's formal/rigid strictures.

But since Niman Disciple is also about using the Force in combat, I can see why Willpower was chosen for Niman Technique, to provide synergy with Discipline (and thus Willpower) being a major trait for a Force user that uses Move in combat.

Which is why I suggested reinforcing Nimian as the Force Mage Saber style by making FR2 more acccessable. Thus, it becomes harder to ht things with a thrown rock, but it becomes easier to lift the rock in the first place.

[...]

But since Niman Disciple is also about using the Force in combat, I can see why Willpower was chosen for Niman Technique, to provide synergy with Discipline (and thus Willpower) being a major trait for a Force user that uses Move in combat.

I admit, my favorite feature of Niman Disciple is its synergy with move. It may be a contributing factor in why I would rather keep it as is.

With that being said, if they swapped the two, it would be the perfect tree to pick up for my Force-Sensitive doctor when I start moving him into Force and Destiny.

So far, I've heard little evidence that puts this idea at flawed, with the only issue being the mix of talents and skills. However, I think less in terms of mixing well and more in terms of logic.

If 'Disciple' is just FFG being creative, then they should seriously reconsider. When I think disciple, I think religious students (which is what disciple refers to in real life). I don't know the lore behind all the technique based Specializations, so I couldn't really say what should be done on a lore perspective.

Also: the Gaurdians stands to me to be a police type (hence all the names involved with Gaurdian and its Specializations), and most justice-based species (the always honest Selonians and the Just Kel Dor) have high Willpower, meaning that the Specialization would bode well with species choice. Furthermore, Consular has Healer, meaning that Consulars might already have high Intellect, while as far as I can see, Willpower is used primarily for the Lightsaber technique (correct me if I'm wrong; I haven't read the Talents much).

So far, I've heard little evidence that puts this idea at flawed, with the only issue being the mix of talents and skills. However, I think less in terms of mixing well and more in terms of logic.

If 'Disciple' is just FFG being creative, then they should seriously reconsider. When I think disciple, I think religious students (which is what disciple refers to in real life). I don't know the lore behind all the technique based Specializations, so I couldn't really say what should be done on a lore perspective.

Also: the Gaurdians stands to me to be a police type (hence all the names involved with Gaurdian and its Specializations), and most justice-based species (the always honest Selonians and the Just Kel Dor) have high Willpower, meaning that the Specialization would bode well with species choice. Furthermore, Consular has Healer, meaning that Consulars might already have high Intellect, while as far as I can see, Willpower is used primarily for the Lightsaber technique (correct me if I'm wrong; I haven't read the Talents much).

I like the name Niman Disciple....it's someone who's a devout practitioner of the Niman style.

And if you really wanna get technical...

Niman: The original Niman fighting style was practiced by the Royale Macheteros of the Kashi Mer Dynasty , who named it for the dual triumvirate of the Kashi deities . The style was adopted by the Legions of Lettow , a group of Dark-siders involved in the First Great Schism of the Jedi Order . After the defeat of the Legion at the hands of the Jedi , Niman was adopted by the Jedi Order, eventually being refined into the sixth form of lightsaber combat , referred to by the same name. ^[16] While Form VI was largely adapted from this earlier fighting style, several noted Jedi considered the pure root of Form VI to be Form III: Soresu . Being a "jack-of-all-trades" style with broad emphasis and little need for continuous and dedicated practice, Niman found a niche amongst Jedi Consulars who instead preferred to focus on diplomacy and meditation on the Force rather than combat. ^[14] Ironically, Niman became the chosen discipline of the fallen Jedi-turned- Sith Lord , Exar Kun . ^[10]

So, TECHNICALLY...a practitioner of this "Discipline", named after an ancient deity...is a "Disciple".

From a synergy standpoint, Niman Technique matches well with Discipline; something Consulars are likely to have a high stat in if they're going a Force Wizard route. But now that I see it, that choice doesn't pair off with much else. Soresu Technique matches well with Medicine from the Protector tree and nothing else from the Guardian trees.

Makashi Technique matches well with Charm, and Negotiation from Advisor

Ataru matches with Coordination and Piloting, as well as Ranged (Heavy & Light) and Stealth

Shien matches with Skulduggery, Deception, and Streetwise

If swapped, Niman Technique would pair well with all the Knowledge skills Consulars have access too, as well as Medicine for Healer and Astrogation for Sage. Willpower would match well for Vigilance and Discipline for the Guardian, so there's little boost to skill synergy. However it would boost the Guardian's Strain Threshold, which would help power Parry and Reflect and other defensive talents, and support the theme of Soresu which is waiting out your opponent to make a mistake. The Masters of Soresu are those who can keep that defense up and wait out their opponents with their very strenuous style.

Aright; you sold me. I agree they should be swapped.

Sold, as well.

More than any other career, the Consular is the egghead career*, which just screams Intelligence over all others.

(*ok, that's now a copyrighted term, and if you use it on the podcast, you must give yours truly full credit).

Sold, as well.

More than any other career, the Consular is the egghead career*, which just screams Intelligence over all others.

(*ok, that's now a copyrighted term, and if you use it on the podcast, you must give yours truly full credit).

Very good.

Castlecruncher, I like your reasoning. Definitely convinced me, too!

Works for me.

For me too.

My problem with it is simple: Imagine a tank (one that doesn't need to expand outside their own career - Soresu, Peacekeeper, Protector) that can stack Willpower for Lightsaber, Force, and the talents in the tree (which require things like heavy strain use). It's too focused in one area. It very quickly becomes the essential, must-have Jedi tree. You simply don't pay enough to be unstoppable compared to other trees. The way they are now, you need to expand where your focus is on. Consular will need Intellect in addition and Guardian will need Will.

My problem with it is simple: Imagine a tank (one that doesn't need to expand outside their own career - Soresu, Peacekeeper, Protector) that can stack Willpower for Lightsaber, Force, and the talents in the tree (which require things like heavy strain use). It's too focused in one area. It very quickly becomes the essential, must-have Jedi tree. You simply don't pay enough to be unstoppable compared to other trees. The way they are now, you need to expand where your focus is on. Consular will need Intellect in addition and Guardian will need Will.

I agree with this completely.

The problem is that Nimian Disciple already has that kind of focus, while already being the "jack of all trades" tree.

So we'd rather have a lightsaber tank with a high strain, good discipline and vigilance rolls but FR1, than having a FR2, lightsaber swinging object mover, mind warper, and all round badass running off a single characteristic.

My problem with it is simple: Imagine a tank (one that doesn't need to expand outside their own career - Soresu, Peacekeeper, Protector) that can stack Willpower for Lightsaber, Force, and the talents in the tree (which require things like heavy strain use). It's too focused in one area. It very quickly becomes the essential, must-have Jedi tree. You simply don't pay enough to be unstoppable compared to other trees. The way they are now, you need to expand where your focus is on. Consular will need Intellect in addition and Guardian will need Will.

I don't have to imagine it, all I have to do is say "Prove it".

This is the beta test; let's not imagine anything. Build it. Build two Kinght-level FnD characters, one Guardian and one Consular. Let's assume that Soresu Technique is now Will and Consular Technique is now Intellect.

Show us how "must have" Soresu becomes in that regards.

I'm inclined to see it that way, but I can't see it the way you are.

The problem is that Nimian Disciple already has that kind of focus, while already being the "jack of all trades" tree.

So we'd rather have a lightsaber tank with a high strain, good discipline and vigilance rolls but FR1, than having a FR2, lightsaber swinging object mover, mind warper, and all round badass running off a single characteristic.

Healing and knowledge specs are hardly "badass" by comparison. You're comparing the force equivalents of Doctor and Scholar to Bodyguard in terms of badass?

Niman Disciple does have that kind of focus, but it makes the most sense that it does. The I agree with the order66 podcast in that regard. The talents aren't "do more damage" or "improved parry" or "defensive stance". They're the typical "you can ignore this if you have the strain", some mixes of force and combat powers like Draw Closer, and talents designed to get back to social play (such as a disarm). By all means, if Will is going to be used for Lightsabers, that's the kind of tree you want it to be associated with. It's hardly offensive, it's not combat friendly, and is centered around supporting a force user in a crunch then someone who is a primary a lightsaber user. But giving Will to a tree like Soresu that can counter attack, upgrade defense die, and a scary amount of neglation talents like parry and reflects if you have the strain? I don't see how that is balanced at all.

I get the feeling that the Technique Specializations should be very focused; they are trees that base around a specific firing type, meaning that it would guide their actions very strongly.

Also, the Maurauder from EotE is very Brawn focused, basing all around either hitting hard with a fist or hitting hard with an ax.

I'd feel more inclined to your conclusion if you gave the names of talents and took Rakaydos' tactic: showing us how you are able to create a powerful character.

And if you can, there's still the high likelihood that they will be very focused, evening out later if the player wished (which can happen vice versa as well). For example, I once created an idea for a Trandoshan that had the stats to crush your skull with his fists, but he was neither balanced nor fun, since I like playing a different type of character hats more justice based. This is what led me to my conclusion; why isn't a police based Career using a police related Characteristic for its Technique Specialization? As I said, justice based species have high Willpower, so it makes more sense to me if the justice based Specialization had Willpower as an important Characteristic. Also, if Willpower fits but Intellect doesn't, then why WOULDN'T we switch them? Why would I spend the experience to get Intellect if I only want it for one thing and won't buy skills for the other uses?

This is the beta test; let's not imagine anything. Build it. Build two Kinght-level FnD characters, one Guardian and one Consular. Let's assume that Soresu Technique is now Will and Consular Technique is now Intellect.

Show us how "must have" Soresu becomes in that regards.