This is the beta test; let's not imagine anything. Build it. Build two Kinght-level FnD characters, one Guardian and one Consular. Let's assume that Soresu Technique is now Will and Consular Technique is now Intellect.

Show us how "must have" Soresu becomes in that regards.

Name Guardian

Status : Wounds 0/15, Strain 0/16

Species : Human (unused skills), Career : Guardian, Specializations : Soresu Defender

Attributes : Brawn 3, Agility 2, Cunning 2, Intellect 2, Willpower 4, Presence 2

Defense : Melee Defense 1, Range Defense 1, Soak Value 4

Skills : Cool 1, Discipline 2 (a)(a)(p)(p), Vigilance 1 (a)(a)(a)(p), Lightsaber 2 (a)(a)(p)(p)

Talents : Defensive Circle, Defensive Stance 1, Grit 2, Parry 2, Improved Parry, Reflect 1, Soresu Tech (will), Toughened 1

Force Rating : 1

Force Powers : Sense (+Upgrade attacks twice), Influence (+Mind Trick),

Gear :

*Basic Lightsaber (a)(a)(p)(p);

6 Damage, Crit 2, Engaged Range; Breach 1, Sunder

*Armored Clothing

Name Counsular

Status : Wounds 0/12, Strain 0/15

Species : Human (unused skills), Career : Counsular, Specializations : Niman

Attributes : Brawn 2, Agility 2, Cunning 2, Intellect 3, Willpower 4, Presence 2

Defense : Melee Defense 2, Range Defense 2, Soak Value 3

Skills : Discipline 2 (a)(a)(p)(p), Lightsaber 1 (a)(p)(p), Education (a)(a)(p), Lore (a)(a)(p)

Talents : Defensive Training 1, Grit 1, Niman (Int), Nobody's Fool 1, Sense Emotions 1, Parry 2, Reflect 1, Sum Djem

Force Rating : 1

Force Powers : Sense (+Upgrade attacks twice), Influence (+Mind Trick)

Gear :

*Basic Lightsaber (a)(p)(p);

6 Damage, Crit 2, Engaged Range; Breach 1, Sunder

*Armored Clothing

We see in comparison the guardian has more capability in terms of handling a lightsaber, higher wound threshold, higher strain threshold, equal discipline, improved parry, and Defensive circle. Force powers are largely the same and skills weren't focused on, so by and large, it's mostly talents that make these different.

The "average" attack against this Counsular is 2 challenge die (force sense) and 2 setback dice (armored clothing and Defensive Training 1).

The "average" attack against this Guardian is 2 challenge die (force sense), 1 difficulty die (Defensive stance), 1 setback die (armored clothing) all with the ability to counter attack (improved parry), and increase their defense rating through a Hard Defensive Circle action.

I'm still not seeing how the idea is balanced. I think it's much better how it is, and much more effective at encouraging players to pay more to become more powerful.

Edit: Furthermore, "justice" types are more likely to be detectives which I would think are Intellect based, not Willpower.

We are comparing the two combat specs of two careers and seeing that the proposed idea vastly makes one more powerful with the same exp. One can be stronger without so completely overshadowing the other like we see here. Further more, Niman Disciple does not offer enough non-combat strength to compare with what would be given up.

Then it can be changed. If this decision that is currently reasonable in all but combat balance, then we should a) make one of them less combat focused, or b) mix up the talents to make them better in other ways. Maybe Niman Disciple is full on combat with little defense, while Soresu Defendernis the opposite, packing a good personal defense with average attack (or even no attack talents outside of Soresu Technique and the special move talent all the Technique Specialization get).

Honestly, as a non-combatant player, I prefer reason and ability over combat statistics. If Soresu becomes an over powered warrior, then let's just make Niman less combat based. I don't know all the talents, and am not an expert on making up Specializations, meaning I wouldn't be too much help in the process beyond friendly suggestions towards general ideas of what I think would work best, but if it's more reasonable then making Niman overpowered and Soresu underpowered (Soresu needs to waste experience on Ontellect while Niman already uses Wllpower as well with Discipline) then I'd see it as the best course of action.

Also, as I just said, the current set up makes Niman Disciple too powerful and Soresu too weak, meaning one simple change will not be enough.

Also, as I just said, the current set up makes Niman Disciple too powerful and Soresu too weak, meaning one simple change will not be enough.

How so? I showed my work, you show yours. What makes you think it's too powerful by comparison?

But that's the point. Niman isn't supposed to be a bad-ass combat line. It's supposed to be a "good" line, a lightsaber line that supports a Force Wizard build.

At least, that's what my impression is.

In this system, combat specs are not created equal.

I need to crunch on this some more...

Let's see...

Niman Disciple

Career skills : Cool (Pr), Discipline (Wi), Knowledge (education) (In), Knowledge (lore) (In), Leadership (Pr), Negtiation (Pr)

Bonus skills : Discipline , Leadership , Lightsaber (Br), Negotiation

Soresu Defender

Career skills : Brawl (Br), Cool (Pr), Discipline (Wi), Melee (Br), Resilience (Br), Vigilance (Wi)

Bonus skills : Discipline , Knowledge (lore) (In), Lightsaber (Br), Vigilance

I don't know how you can say that Niman Disciple is overpowered... it is one real good talent tree, but clearly not overpowered... I also know that if you change Willpower for Intellect for Niman Disciple, it will create a very strong synergy with Sage and the combo Sage/Niman will be very very strong....

Also, as I just said, the current set up makes Niman Disciple too powerful and Soresu too weak, meaning one simple change will not be enough.

How so? I showed my work, you show yours. What makes you think it's too powerful by comparison?

This is what a Knight level Nimian Disciple looks like with Willpower as a lightsaber stat:

Niman Disciple can access FR2 for 130 XP, and uses the same stat for Lightsabers that they use for most force powers. So lets see if this can break the system.

A Zabrak with 50 morality can get a 5 willpower with 20 XP left over. Starting at knight level gives another 150 and a lightsaber.

Spending 130 XP on Nimian Disciple gets you a blue die to social checks, being harder to influence or critical, 1 rank of Reflect, Defensive Training, and FR2. This leaves 40 XP

Move Object requires 25 XP to throw a sillouette 0 object at someone at short range. Another 15 XP in Influence lets you pull a jedi mind trick. Both checks need 1 force pip, and a Discipling skillcheck at YYGGG, and your lightsaber skill is at YGGGG, with the basic blasterparry talent and plenty of strain.

Note that your "horribly overpowered" willpower-based Sorensu Knight has a weaker lightsaber check, and lacks a ranged combat option on par with the Nimian throwing rocks.

Exar Kun's mastery of Niman suggest that it's not entirely a non-combat line and can be quiet formidable, even if the process of which that happens is not a quick one by comparison to others.

Ultimately, what I'm illustrating is that providing Guardian/Soresu with Will ends up with a more broken combat character due to the inherient combat talents already in those trees then Counsular/Niman, which lacks those fighting talents, when given the Willpower technique. Providing Guardians with the use of Will is something far more worrisome when it comes to balance then providing it to Counsulars.

Where you decide to put exp is your progative. But I was looking at talents primarily so I focused on them. Any Force power that is Discipline based could be considered equal for the purposes of that comparison.

Another thing to remember is that the Sage spec is one of those that doesn't have Dedication, meaning they don't have the means to increase Will or Int like Guardian specs do. Allowing them to focus their attributes is a good thing as they have fewer oppertunities to increase those (with the exception of Seer).

The problem is that Nimian force powers and Sorensu force powers are not equal, because Nimian is the only saber spec with a +1 FR talent. Nimian having willpower simply reinforces how dominant it is at force combat.

With the shift, Nimian becomes the saber spec that has the best chance of activating it's powers, while Guardian has the best chance to hit with any power they manage to activate with their FR 1. This is balanced IMO.

The problem is that Nimian force powers and Sorensu force powers are not equal, because Nimian is the only saber spec with a +1 FR talent. Nimian having willpower simply reinforces how dominant it is at force combat.

With the shift, Nimian becomes the saber spec that has the best chance of activating it's powers, while Guardian has the best chance to hit with any power they manage to activate with their FR 1. This is balanced IMO.

You could say the same thing for every other LS forms like Ataru, Shien, etc. ; only Niman has Force Rating +1.

Saying Soresu will be balanced with Niman now that it will have a greater chance to hit with the Move power, it only means that the others are gimped because they have less FR and less Willpower to hit with the Move power.... you can't juge a talent tree by only one skill...

My suggestion would be to switch Intellect from Soresu with Presence from Makashi... I think it will have greater synergy with their respective Careers and Career specs.

The problem is that Nimian force powers and Sorensu force powers are not equal, because Nimian is the only saber spec with a +1 FR talent. Nimian having willpower simply reinforces how dominant it is at force combat.

With the shift, Nimian becomes the saber spec that has the best chance of activating it's powers, while Guardian has the best chance to hit with any power they manage to activate with their FR 1. This is balanced IMO.

Except Niman is THE Force tree. Not Soresu. Niman should have the better chance at both activating and using Force powers then other saber combat trees.

Soresu is a defensive tree - extremely so - which is seen in the massive number of Parries and Reflects, Improved Parry, Defensive stance, Defensive Circle, and other talents. Soresu does not need to compete with Niman when it comes to the Force. If those where the only two saber trees, that would be one thing - but they're not. Balancing out force use between trees is not something that's done with any other saber spec, so why try to apply it here?

Along those lines, some of Niman's mixed Force/Saber talents make little sense as Intellect checks. As using the force is primarily Willpower, it makes sense to leave the tree that has force-powered saber talents and checks continue to be Willpower based.

As for giving Mystics Intellect? That might be it's own thread unless we revamp this the "What attribute goes to what technique" thread.

I'm not worried about Soresu being underpowered. One of the devs tweeted the other night that their groups Soresu Defender was able to go toe-to-toe with an inquisitor. Not sure how much XP the SD had.

I'm not worried about Soresu being underpowered. One of the devs tweeted the other night that their groups Soresu Defender was able to go toe-to-toe with an inquisitor. Not sure how much XP the SD had.

Probably a good amount, seeing as how he had Improved Parry and was able to withstand a number of hits from the Inquisitor without being dropped.

If Niman is "THE" Force Tree, then give them Intellect an allow them to base all Discipline checks on Intellect when using the Force, shown by their knowledge of Force techniques that allow them to stay solid.

Also, I was referring to how you said that Niman gets Willpower, which fits well, while Soresu needs Willpower AND Intellect to be efficient, which doesn't work well. As I said and as you apparently forgot to notice, we need to change the whole Specializations in order for it to work. Otherwise, one will always be better than the other with both going for the same goal.

What if we made Niman a Force Combat Spexialization and Soresu a Defensive Combat Specialization? That way, they both are good yet seperate, and they both match description. There is always a compromise to be had, and the best one here is to change the core of the Specialozations. In fact, neither should be combat focused; leave that for Warriors.

If Niman is "THE" Force Tree, then give them Intellect an allow them to base all Discipline checks on Intellect when using the Force, shown by their knowledge of Force techniques that allow them to stay solid.

Also, I was referring to how you said that Niman gets Willpower, which fits well, while Soresu needs Willpower AND Intellect to be efficient, which doesn't work well. As I said and as you apparently forgot to notice, we need to change the whole Specializations in order for it to work. Otherwise, one will always be better than the other with both going for the same goal.

What if we made Niman a Force Combat Spexialization and Soresu a Defensive Combat Specialization? That way, they both are good yet seperate, and they both match description. There is always a compromise to be had, and the best one here is to change the core of the Specialozations. In fact, neither should be combat focused; leave that for Warriors.

Forget it: you obviously don't about a single word I can say. Anything I say to try to justify myself, you'll just shoot it down with statistics and all that bullcrap.

I saw that Niman was getting a somewhat off put Talent that I felt could be swapped with Soresu. I put in my reasoning, and I've already said that if it doesn't work to only change one Talent, we could mix them around a bit (it's still in Beta, after all). However, you obviously care more about "balance" then you do about narrative reasoning, and vice versa for me. If you'd rather have statistics and balance and such, then go on ahead. I, for one, prefer to have the game actually explain why it made its choices rather then just throw them in there because it would make a character more "balanced." I'll just make the change for my own game and tell you how much it works out in the end.

If anyone else agrees that the Specializations need rearranging (which I find oddly unlikely), then feel free to say so.

If anyone else agrees that the Specializations need rearranging (which I find oddly unlikely), then feel free to say so.

I don't know if they really need major rearranging, but could use some tweaks here and there where the LS Form specs to bring them a bit more in line with what the Forms are described as both being and being capable of doing.

I can see the logic behind having Niman Technique default to Intellect and Soresu Technique default to Willpower, given that Niman is something of a scholarly Form and Soresu is an endurance-based Form.

I think Niman really only became a "Force heavy" Form in the wake of WotC's Saga Edition Jedi Academy Sourcebook which made the Niman-based Lightsaber Form Force powers be entirely telekinesis-based effects. And since the spec requires Move for those particularly talents, the player's already got a vested interest in raising their Willpower and Discipline even without Niman Technique making the Lightsaber skill based upon Willpower. Given the various concerns that folks have had of Force users becoming too powerful, I'd think that having Niman Technique use a Characteristic other than Willpower so as to require the character to diversify a bit.

As for Soresu Defender and having their technique talent be based on Willpower, I'm not really seeing where it creates a huge imbalance that makes the spec "too good." And with more thought, makes more thematic sense as Soresu as a Form is built around patience and waiting for that perfect moment to strike, this taking willpower to restrain the impulses to attack until that perfect moment presents itself. Much the same as how Ataru relies on speed and agility to blitz through an opponent's defenses by striking from multiple angles, or Shien utilizes the practitioner's to exploit the weaknesses in a foe's defenses, making them a cunning warrior.

If anyone else agrees that the Specializations need rearranging (which I find oddly unlikely), then feel free to say so.

I don't know if they really need major rearranging, but could use some tweaks here and there where the LS Form specs to bring them a bit more in line with what the Forms are described as both being and being capable of doing.

I can see the logic behind having Niman Technique default to Intellect and Soresu Technique default to Willpower, given that Niman is something of a scholarly Form and Soresu is an endurance-based Form.

I think Niman really only became a "Force heavy" Form in the wake of WotC's Saga Edition Jedi Academy Sourcebook which made the Niman-based Lightsaber Form Force powers be entirely telekinesis-based effects. And since the spec requires Move for those particularly talents, the player's already got a vested interest in raising their Willpower and Discipline even without Niman Technique making the Lightsaber skill based upon Willpower. Given the various concerns that folks have had of Force users becoming too powerful, I'd think that having Niman Technique use a Characteristic other than Willpower so as to require the character to diversify a bit.

As for Soresu Defender and having their technique talent be based on Willpower, I'm not really seeing where it creates a huge imbalance that makes the spec "too good." And with more thought, makes more thematic sense as Soresu as a Form is built around patience and waiting for that perfect moment to strike, this taking willpower to restrain the impulses to attack until that perfect moment presents itself. Much the same as how Ataru relies on speed and agility to blitz through an opponent's defenses by striking from multiple angles, or Shien utilizes the practitioner's to exploit the weaknesses in a foe's defenses, making them a cunning warrior.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121698-how-the-lightsaber-techniques-work/

Also, that's just about exactly what I had been thinking. I was thinking about how it would work narratively. I don't build RPGs for a living, so I wouldn't be the talk-to-guy about tweaking/rewriting Specializations, but I just was thinking that it made more sense to have them be flipped.

So i think that Intellect is fine for Soresu, just because you can, lore wise, look at its key practitioner. Obi Wan Kenobi. Kenobi is someone by movie standards i would say is an intelligence based character. He is always thinking of plans and trying to outsmart his opponents into not fighting, hence his nickname the negotiator. Soresu is often characterised by quick tight movements and economy of motion. making your opponent tire themselves out by trying to work their way through intricate defense nets, making your opponents waste energy trying to attack you. After writing that i can see the argument for will power for Soresu as in outlasting your opponents, but also ive seen mentioned in lore that soresu would take the fight to long and eventually tire themselves out and lose. On the niman hand i can see it being the scholarly discipline and intelligence of course fits that, but will power isnt exactly out of the question because meditation, and therefore meditation on the force, also requires willpower to concentrate on the force or the meditation itself.

Personally, I think the the lore can be used to justify it either way. You look at the iconic users of either school, and it's easy to say they're all pretty intelligent and pretty strong-willed (because, well...Jedi). Personality traits and role-playing opportunities make sense either way, and really either type of character would be well-served to have both stats, basically.

So since the lore works both ways, it becomes a game balance issue. Should the game developers be more concerned with this sort of synergy (like the many overlapping skills from various specs, and how they work with the attribute affiliated with that spec)? Should they see that sort of synergy as a good thing, or potentially an imbalacing thing? How much overlap is just right, versus too little, versus too much?

It's got to become a mechanical discussion, because arguing the lore angle doesn't really go any where. The famous Nimaan and Soresu practicioners out there are pretty badass and well-rounded characters, and the descriptions of each school can be used to justify either attribute.

From Wookiepedia:

" Ultimately, Niman's success in combat was dependent on a practitioner's intuition and creativity in combat"

So, lore wise, Cunning could fit in as well.

I think if we try hard enough, any Characteristic could fit any style (ok, this is an exageration, but it would be close).

Honestly I am more of the opinion that the Lightsaber trees should be universal allowing the player to pick and choose which lightsaber combat fits the theme of the character more.

Don't over-estimate the +10 experience tax for cross-career specializing. It's not that big of a deal, Personally, I pay the extra 10 xp for an out-of-career spec much more often than going in-career and I've never regretted it.

There's also a factor of balance to consider as well.

With only two LS Form specs, most characters can get at least 4 ranks of Parry and Reflect; Niman Disciple makes for an outstanding 2nd spec for most 'saber wielders since it lets them stack on three ranks each of Parry and Reflect, add in two ranks of Defensive Training (great for those melee battles), and up their Force Rating, making those talents that require a Force die roll all the more effective since that means greater odds of getting the necessary Force Points. A PC with both Soresu Defender and Niman Disciple is going to be a beast in combat once they've bought all the ranks of Parry and Reflect that each spec offers; add in Circle of Defense for at least a couple of extra points in defense and that Soresu Defender has both Improved Parry and Improved Reflect and you've got a PC that will be taking very little damage from the attacks that do hit, and then using Improved Parry/Reflect to counter attack.

Just going from the Inquisitor creation guidelines, being able to negate up to 7 damage from an attack (5 ranks in Parry/Reflect) gives the PC a heck of a lot more combat survivability compared to most other PCs, especially as Parry and Reflect take effect before damage is applied to the PC's Soak Value.

So that additional non-career spec cost is there for a game balance reason, to help cut down on the psuedo-Jedi from completely dominating the game they way that Jedi PCs had an alarming habit of doing in the prior Star Wars RPGs.

There's no need to change the stats used by Niman and Soresu. No class uses just one stat and the saber forms reflect this. Consular is called Consular for a reason. It's a social class as well as a knowledge and force use nerdery and its skills and abilities mostly use Willpower, Intellect, and Presence. Mystic does the same. Sentinel uses a lot of Cunning but also uses Agility and Intellect and so on and so forth. Guardian uses just about everything. So stat wise it's unnecessary.

When we look at flavor it is a negative. While one can make various arguments with good reason that style x should use stat y, each Lightsaber Talent Tree has been built with one particular stat in mind. Makashi uses Presence, Ataru agility, and so forth. The trees are built with abilities like Makashi Flurish and Strategic Form as both useful talents which are closely linked fluff-wise with the baseline attribute for those styles. So change that and you're going to have to do rebuild some trees.

As for Niman's place among the lightsaber styles, the fluff says it is generalist foundational style that was incorporated the use of telekinesis to supplement it's arsenal. That makes it an excellent choice of a first style before learning more specialized styles and an excellent second choice after learning one of said more specialized style. Niman's poor combat reputation arose from the fact that it tended not to place too much emphasis on blade work and that it was frequently used by less combat orientated Jedi who invested less of their efforts into mastering the saber in favour of developing their other skills. This leads to three observations: (1) A determined student can put the time into honing his blade work, (2) A more combat orientated Jedi would put more time and energy into developing his or her blade work, and (3) both of these qualities applied to Exar-Kun. Lastly, the highly lethal dual and double blade using Jar'Kai style (more Exar-Kun) is a Niman derivative. In other words, its good to have it as part of your arsenal and it can be utterly devastating if you put enough work into it.