And there is a method. Double triumph. I would just make it double triumph and sunder as the requirement.

The rules are fine as is now. As I said in another thread, if lightsabers can be sundered regularly, then every lightsaber duel will start with sundering because it is the very best option in most cases. That doesn't reflect the movies AT ALL. In fact, it makes lightsaber duels cartoonish-ly stupid. FFG introduced all sorts of new talents like Parry and Defensive Training to make lightsaber duels last longer than one round. Allowing lightsabers to be sundered would make practically every lightsaber duel a race to sunder the other person's weapon. Yay! Not really.

Revising Sunder won't happen. FFG has made it pretty clear that consistency across the lines is important. For example, look at the correction to cover. I appreciate this because it means I don't necessarily need some combination of all three books to make sure I get the rules right.

People argue that lightsabers are no longer exquisitely rare and valuable. How so? Because there are more of them in the book? In the game universe, lightsabers didn't suddenly start popping up all over the place simply because a new book for the TRPG came out. Even in this rules set, lightsabers are supposed to be extremely rare equipment that people obtain well after character creation.

Imagine a fight between a guy with a vibro-ax and a guy with a lightsaber. Who would you expect to sunder who's weapon? It's not a trick question, and the rules reflect this obvious outcome now. Lightsabers frequently carve through other weapons, but rarely get carved up in the movies. So rarely in fact, that the double triumphs needed to destroy a lightsaber do a much better job of reflecting this than the Sunder quality. Introducing a new quality to make certain items harder so sunder, as stated previously, has implications for previously released products and adds complication to a game that prides itself on simplicity. It works as it is now.

Finally, if you're crazy enough to assault a Jedi or Sith with your bare hands and you roll two triumph, you deserve to destroy their lightsaber. You earned it. No one's solutions are going to eliminate every silly situation that might come up, but the solution in the recent update makes the typical lightsaber combat much closer to what people expect.

Maybe they need to add a cortosis attachment for weapons, so more weapons can enjoy being immune to sunder. Which brings up another point, why are cortosis weapons immune to sunder? Surely, they are not indestructible and can suffer degrees of damage that affect the ease of their use. Should we argue this too?

1) Making it immune to Sunder because it's small and in your hand doesn't work because other small weapons that are mainly hidden by your hand are not immune to Sunder. I've said this three times.

2) Meta/powergameing sunder to remove lightsabers from battle:

a) Not likely to happen in any case, since it would require conscientious effort over several rounds to get 4 Sunders.

b) Worse now because 2 Triumphs from any weapon takes the lightsaber directly to destroyed. This makes it worse than the Sunder rules, because there's no middle ground.

I believe making the crystals immune to Sunder solves all the problems, with the possible but unlikely exception of Mr. Baldwin's meta "just start the battle and immediately Sunder all lightsabers. Done." I can't imagine any group would actually play that way, and if I were GM that tactic would work once, and then you'd learn about Harm and Unleash.

You'll note how frequently other confrontations are brought to an end by gratuitous use of Sunder: almost never. That's simply not an issue.

I'll admit that it's unlikely a brawler will take on a lightsaber-wielding enemy and survive. I already told you the odds. That's rather beside the point, which is that it's possible to destroy a lightsaber in one attack with your fists! That should not be possible.

1) Making it immune to Sunder because it's small and in your hand doesn't work because other small weapons that are mainly hidden by your hand are not immune to Sunder. I've said this three times.

I feel it's different than say a Light Blaster or a knife. With those, a substantial part of the weapon is not wrapped up in hand. With a lightsabre, there's almost nothing more than a centimetre of metal above and below your fist. And you can't even approach those from above because the blade is in the way. Basically you're trying to sunder something by slicing between the blade and the top of the fist. I'm struggling to think of what other weapons you might be referring to that are comparable. A knife or a gun, even small examples, still have protruding active parts that can be targeted. And they can be attacked from any direction - they don't have an impenetrable plasma field on top of them!

I believe making the crystals immune to Sunder solves all the problems, with the possible but unlikely exception of Mr. Baldwin's meta "just start the battle and immediately Sunder all lightsabers. Done." I can't imagine any group would actually play that way, and if I were GM that tactic would work once, and then you'd learn about Harm and Unleash.

It doesn't solve the counter-intuitiveness of it being possible to sunder a lightsabre at all. And I can totally see a lot of groups doing that. Really, good rules should strive to avoid putting the GM and players in conflict so that the GM has to say: "no, the clever thing you found doesn't work". Or worse "I'm going to punish you with lightning-firing Sith if you do it".

Brass Knuckles. Shock gloves. Holdout blasters that are easily concealed within the palm.

Looks like a good amount of the hilt is above the grip to me - nearly 15 cm (6 in). Certainly as much as would be in a vibroknife or such.

Also, it may be a cultural thing: In games I've played in the rule has been, "You can do whatever cheesy thing you want, within the rules, and expect it to work once. If you try it again, expect it to fail."

It's not a threat or retaliation, but a statement that a certain level of "respect for the game" will be maintained. It probably sounds a lot more harsh, but the intent was that they'd soon enough find the enemy using other weaponry, and it wouldn't likely be nicer.

With a lightsabre, there's almost nothing more than a centimetre of metal above and below your fist.

A centimeter you say? Get out the rulers guys...

Even with a two-handed grip there is plenty of sunder room...

I am corrected. I didn't remember them being like that.

That'll teach me to argue the fine points of Star Wars on these forums. For my next trick, I shall be discussing cosmology with this nice chap called Hawking I've just met!

I think it also depends on the person and the grip used. I recall some of the characters in the prequel films holding their hands pretty darn close to the emitter of their lightsabers, leaving very little space between the top of their grip and the bottom of the energy blade.

I think it also depends on the person and the grip used. I recall some of the characters in the prequel films holding their hands pretty darn close to the emitter of their lightsabers, leaving very little space between the top of their grip and the bottom of the energy blade.

EDIT: Nope Dooku's grip is terrible too, he leaves like 2 inches above and below his paw for sundering.

Prequel Obi and Anakin seem to grip near the blade, leaving only the bottom two-thirds of the hilt to get looped (though two-handed grips in the Prequel cover this well). Qui-Gon seems to prefer two-handed grips that cover the hilt.

And Yodi's shoto are well covered by his tiny mitts.

I think it also depends on the person and the grip used. I recall some of the characters in the prequel films holding their hands pretty darn close to the emitter of their lightsabers, leaving very little space between the top of their grip and the bottom of the energy blade.

True. I'm sure pics showing that would be easy to find as well (I'm thinking Dooku's grip maybe...).

EDIT: Nope Dooku's grip is terrible too, he leaves like 2 inches above and below his paw for sundering.

Prequel Obi and Anakin seem to grip near the blade, leaving only the bottom two-thirds of the hilt to get looped (though two-handed grips in the Prequel cover this well). Qui-Gon seems to prefer two-handed grips that cover the hilt.

And Yodi's shoto are well covered by his tiny mitts.

Really it's a bit silly regardless. "You can't damage my lightsabre because it's protected by my hand!"

It's just an outcome of the artificiality of the damage / combat system that sets more importance on flesh and blood than metal, and so makes harming the former more difficult. And thus trying to sunder becomes a more viable tactic than killing your opponent. I mean I know Jedi regard their lightsabre as their life, but I still feel when it actually came to a choice they'd probably choose their fingers more.

1) Making it immune to Sunder because it's small and in your hand doesn't work because other small weapons that are mainly hidden by your hand are not immune to Sunder. I've said this three times.

2) Meta/powergameing sunder to remove lightsabers from battle:

a) Not likely to happen in any case, since it would require conscientious effort over several rounds to get 4 Sunders.

b) Worse now because 2 Triumphs from any weapon takes the lightsaber directly to destroyed. This makes it worse than the Sunder rules, because there's no middle ground.

I believe making the crystals immune to Sunder solves all the problems, with the possible but unlikely exception of Mr. Baldwin's meta "just start the battle and immediately Sunder all lightsabers. Done." I can't imagine any group would actually play that way, and if I were GM that tactic would work once, and then you'd learn about Harm and Unleash.

You'll note how frequently other confrontations are brought to an end by gratuitous use of Sunder: almost never. That's simply not an issue.

2) Groups will play that way because it makes the most sense to do so under your idea. Also, it wouldn't take four rounds to Sunder a weapon. It takes three advantage to render an item useless. Three advantage are very easy to generate, even on one attack role, and talents like parry do nothing to stop it. Your idea of assuming people won't do it is actually more meta because it's like saying "my character knows sundering a lightsaber is the absolute best option for how to use my advantage in a fight. My character won't do it because it is bad for the game ." That's the very definition of meta. Giving players an obvious option and then assuming they won't use it is a terrible way to design a game. FFG made the right call in taking away that option.

Why do you want lightsabers to be susceptible to sunder? Because, as you say, your group doesn't play that way/won't do it that often? Okay, then what is the point? How is two triumph not good enough?

Also, why are you not complaining about cortosis items being immune to sunder? In canon, Cortosis/Mandalorian Iron/Phric Alloy are all not indestructible. They are resistant to lightsabers but even then, not immune to lightsabers and lightsabers are hardly the only thing that can sunder in the game. If you're going to suggest rules changes, be consistent.

1) If you're arguing for the sake of realism that lightsabers should be susceptible to sunder because other items that are just as small can be sundered, just stop. This is not a realistic system, it is a narrative system. In the narrative of Star Wars, Jedi/Sith don't sunder each other's weapon except in particularly triumphant moments. That is represented in game by two triumphs. Go figure.

Making crystals immune to sunder doesn't fix anything within the context of a particular duel because you can't stop mid-duel to put your crystal in a new hilt.

Finally, for Pete's sake just house-rule it because in your game , your players won't immediately proceed to the obvious choice of sundering an opponents lightsaber because if they do you will be a vindictive GM and use powerful Force powers to punish them.

RAW should assume that people will use the most obvious choice because by RAW, GM's don't become vindictive when players don't metagame and fight to the best of their ability by using the best options. RAW should also reflect Star Wars because that is what this particular game sets out to be. Frequently in real sword fights, the blades slide down each other until blades are pressuring against cross-guards. For some reason that doesn't happen in lightsaber duels. It is probably due to lightsaber wielders protecting their hands and lightsaber. If lightsabers can be sundered, Resist Disarm should be at the top of every single lightsaber form talent tree for 5xp because it is obviously such a basic talent that every movie character has it mastered. After all, they only get disarmed or sundered when they have no more strain to spare towards the end of a fight, but certainly not at the very beginning.

Frequently in real sword fights, the blades slide down each other until blades are pressuring against cross-guards. For some reason that doesn't happen in lightsaber duels.

I like to think that it's because the magnetic field containing the plasma exerts an upward push along the edge of the blade. If a character looks like they're using their strength to try and force down their blade onto and along their opponent's, it's because they are! Trying to push your blade down your opponents against the plasma flow is like trying to push a pole into the nozzle of an active firehose. Best you can do once blades are locked is to either break and re-attack from another angle or use your strength, momentum or angle to circle your opponents blade around and off so you can strike behind their guard.

Really it's a bit silly regardless. "You can't damage my lightsabre because it's protected by my hand!"

That is completely true, I hadn't looked at it from that side, I got wrapped up in the gamist aspect of it.

Really it's a bit silly regardless. "You can't damage my lightsabre because it's protected by my hand!"

Bwahahahahahaha!

That is completely true, I hadn't looked at it from that side, I got wrapped up in the gamist aspect of it.

I think grievous said that to obi-wan right before they fought.

With a lightsabre, there's almost nothing more than a centimetre of metal above and below your fist.

A centimeter you say? Get out the rulers guys...

Even with a two-handed grip there is plenty of sunder room...

This reminds me of the joke "Why are women so bad at math?"

I'm not arguing for the sake of realism, I'm arguing because it's an exception made to the rules when it made sense to have such an exception (namely, a lightsaber was an epic story item that should not be easily damaged or lost), now that we have rules for parts and "construction", this exception is no longer needed.

Lightsabers don't have cortosis in them. There's no reason they should be immune to Sunder.

From the EU we have evidence that at least some lightsaber crystals are extremely sturdy, and capable of surviving explosions and such that wreck the hilt and surrounding area. So make the crystal immune to Sunder, but not the hilt.

In addition to preventing Lightsabers from being magically protected for no real reason, this does not inconvenience the Force user any more than a blaster-weilder or a vibroblade-weilder who has their weapon Sundered.

As pointed out, it takes 4 Sunders to destroy the weapon. The attacker has a lot of choices: Crit? Sunder? Aid an ally with a Bonus die? Force users tend to have good defenses, especially by the time they can get a lightsaber.

A character should be more than their weapon. They should know when to fight, know when to walk away, and know when to run. /Gambler

I think that making lightsabers immune to sunder for the first couple books was a reasonable idea, but continuing that idea is no longer reasonable.

True, there's just as much surface area to damage on a lightsaber hilt as there is a hold-out blaster or set of brass knuckles, but those last two don't have a highly dangerous meter-long energy blade to get in the way either.

Perhaps a middle ground between the "can't be Sundered" camp and the "should be subject to Sunder" camp might be to require the attacker to spend 2 additional Advantage per activation of the Sunder quality when targeting a lightsaber. Thus, a lightsaber can be Sundered, but since you'd need at least 3 Advantage just to damage it and 9 Advantage to disable the weapon, the change makes trying to Sunder a lightsaber far less of a "go-to" combat option while still keeping it on the table.

if only we could get in the way back machine and add a quality between normal and cortosis (like small, or such).

"that's right Mr. Peabody."

"quiet you!"

True, there's just as much surface area to damage on a lightsaber hilt as there is a hold-out blaster or set of brass knuckles, but those last two don't have a highly dangerous meter-long energy blade to get in the way either.

Perhaps a middle ground between the "can't be Sundered" camp and the "should be subject to Sunder" camp might be to require the attacker to spend 2 additional Advantage per activation of the Sunder quality when targeting a lightsaber. Thus, a lightsaber can be Sundered, but since you'd need at least 3 Advantage just to damage it and 9 Advantage to disable the weapon, the change makes trying to Sunder a lightsaber far less of a "go-to" combat option while still keeping it on the table.

I'm cool with that, make Basic Hilts the standard at say 2, Double Bladed could be 1, Shoto a 3, and Force Pikes 1?

After thinking a bit, I agree with the lack of being able to sunder.

You still can disarm with a triumph, and destroy the weapon with two triumphs.

Just cannot break the weapon with a sunder quality.

If anything when Luke was laying the beatdown on Vader at the end of the Epic duel before he sliced off his hand would be as close as you could to trying to sunder a light saber. Far easier to maim the offending appendage

You mean like a Phrik quality

I'm not arguing for the sake of realism, I'm arguing because it's an exception made to the rules when it made sense to have such an exception (namely, a lightsaber was an epic story item that should not be easily damaged or lost), now that we have rules for parts and "construction", this exception is no longer needed.

It's still a pretty epic item, though. It can now be replaced with a lot of time and resource so it's not like it's gone forever now. But it's still several steps up from losing a gun or a vibroaxe or whatever. Your ranged character might be very pissed when they lose their customized rifle, but they'll be able to pick one up off the next fallen opponent or rush into a shop and buy one with a quick Streetwise roll. It's a hiccup and a nuisance to them. A Jedi losing her lightsabre is a pretty big deal. Especially if it happens near the start of the adventure when downtime is a long way away.

Your ranged character might be very pissed when they lose their customized rifle, but they'll be able to pick one up off the next fallen opponent or rush into a shop and buy one with a quick Streetwise roll.

Your ranged character might be very pissed when they lose their customized rifle, but they'll be able to pick one up off the next fallen opponent or rush into a shop and buy one with a quick Streetwise roll.

Depending on the game you're running losing a Lightsaber wouldn't be terribly tragic either.

Well nearly anything is depending on the game you're running, but I think it can only be a small subset of actual games where losing your lightsabre is at all comparable to losing your blaster rife.

Well nearly anything is depending on the game you're running, but I think it can only be a small subset of actual games where losing your lightsabre is at all comparable to losing your blaster rife.