More of the same. Feel free to do what you like in your universe. I interpret the Imperium a bit more toward the Orwellian side of the equation. The Imperium has been around quite a long time, and its navigational laws are well-established. All sorts of Rogue Traders have done exactly what you describe in the past, causing all sorts of anarchy, and so the laws have become more and more prohibitive (closing the loopholes, so to speak). And no, those laws aren't enforced outside the Imperium, but at some point your boy comes home and his actions follow him.

Javcs, my example of the battlebarge was a facetious attempt at pointing out the absurd, not a real example. It was the extreme limit of where this reasoning eventually leads.

And Blade, your side of the argument is the one that has argued itself into a corner. Your interpretation rests on "what happens outside the Imperium stays outside the Imperium." No it doesn't. Our world isn't that simple and the galaxy of 40k is scales of magnitude more complicated.

About 5000 years ago, the first laws were invented for just this reason. People, perceiving injustice done to them, would take the matter of justice into hand. Then another group, seeing themselves wronged in the matter, would also join in. Before long anarchy reigned and the populous was unhappy. Strong men took control of the chaotic populations, backed by other strong men, specialized artisans, and the educated. States were born. Civilization was thus created (advanced social institutions, usually referring to law and religion, being a prerequisite of civilization). Your theory leads backwards...to an absence of civilization. Your theory backs the argument that the Imperium of Man cannot exist. That's a corner and you're standing in it.

Baron, I haven't overlooked a thing. You do me a disservice to think I haven't considered all facets of a Warrant of Trade. Yes, the Warrant grants astounding powers and privileges, even the power to declare and wage war, and even drag the Imperium of Man into that war. It does not, however, grant the Rogue Trader the power to war on the Imperium, and other Rogue Traders are representatives of the Imperium quite the same as your Rogue Trader is. When you attack another Rogue Trader you will eventually be called to task, just as an Inquisitor gets called to task when getting into a planet-devastating squabble with another Inquisitor. Then it comes down to a matter of legalities and the details surrounding the incident in question. The OP quite explicitly said they attacked the rival RT "just to f*** with them and for the fun of it all (paraphrased)." I have a hard time believing that will hold up under the scrutiny of investigation. The detectives of your universe might be incompetent but not in my universe. Your example of an RT engaging another to stop the Cold Trade WAS a good example of one of the incidents one might use to cover what was essentially an attack of opportunity. Once again, the OP did not even give a hint that this was the case. In fact, a cover-up was never suggested and the entire point of the post was to determine the amount of "loot we get from this dungeon."

And lastly, javcs, exactly what kind of dirt is that rival RT going to dig up on the original? Piracy isn't against the laws of the Imperium in your universe. In our own little world murder, ****, and arson are usually considered the "Big Three." They aren't even illegal in your universe. I'm guessing heresy, blasphemy, and xenos-dealing are your "Big Three." And that's fine. I'm just not going to buy into the notion that the others have disappeared as capital crimes.

Errant, you're going way beyond anything I've ever said or implied, and outright against things that I have. Murder, ****, and arson are very much illegal in my view of the setting; admittedly, they're usually local infractions and the Imperium/Imperial institutions usually don't get involved. Except that when dealing with the upper strata of the Imperium, actually prosecuting someone is a lot harder to do - it's as much who they know and their connections as what they've done, and there are some people can do what would otherwise be murder and arson completely legally under certain circumstances - nobody's going to say that an Inquisitor and his underlings can't go and kill everyone in a building and then burn it to the ground if it's required.

Piracy is very much against the laws of the Imperium. The problem is that when dealing with Rogue Traders - people who actually have a legitimate Warrant - things can get very complicated very quickly.

In your claim that murder, ****, and arson aren't illegal - sure, they're illegal, but it's usually quite difficult for local enforcers to enforce charges against a Rogue Trader, and once off that world - if the charges are even circulated off world, the RT can usually just brush off the charges as an attempt at a smear job against his reputation by a rival or for political reasons that he hasn't gotten the opportunity to finish correcting, but he has started the process. Of course, this assumes that he or more likely an underling, probably a Seneschal, didn't persuade someone in the local judiciary to quash the charges before they got anywhere. The Imperial Adeptus, the Navy, Inquisition, even Arbites, are usually not going to care, much less get involved, unless the victim was connected to the right people or the Tithe or Imperial rule is threatened.

When dealing with a rival Rogue Trader, yes, they are representatives of the Imperium, and yes, they, like you, have a Warrant that allows them - while outside the Imperium, to do some things that are normally forbidden inside the Imperium. Covering things up and whitewashing them for the eyes of the Imperium is par for the course. Usually, however, the Imperium isn't going to look at the activities of Rogue Traders, especially what happens beyond the Imperium, very closely unless they've found or been given a good reason to do so. Rogue Traders are largely self-policing while outside the Imperium - they have to be, because if the Imperium could and did regularly police them there, they'd no longer be outside the Imperium.

In the case of the OP hitting a rival for ***** and giggles, yeah, that's going to cause problems for them, but it probably won't be the Inquisition or Imperial Navy coming after them right away, though that's certainly not off the table. The first reaction is usually going to want to take care of things 'in-house' so to speak, but say the Rival RT has friends/connections high in the Imperial Adeptus that they turn to - it probably won't be a Navy detachment sent out to track the OP down and bring the OP to justice - it'll probably be an add-on to the documentation of the Warrant allowing them to track down and seize ships and other assets of the OP (probably limited in some fashion, likely to outside the Imperium) and may or may not include a discount on buying a hull or two from the Reserves to do the hunting with; but say those friends/connections of the Rival RT are really good and high up, and they exert their influence to get a more favorable/broader wording on the add-on, so instead of being specific and limited to the OP, it's the OP and allied entities, or even more favorable, it's something in the vein of "avowed/sworn enemies of Rival RT's House", or "enemies and allied entities thereof"; and likely the add-on has few or no time restrictions or limitations.

Say something like that happened in the past, fast forward a few centuries or more, in the cast of a broader/more favorable wording, "allied entities" can be a great many entities, and with sufficient application of lawyers, bull, and influence, can be extended to not just current allies, but also those who were allies historically or for a specific convenience. This can make what would otherwise be piracy technically legal. Unless the other guy has more/better lawyers/bull/influence or you hit Imperial Adeptus assets. If it's an even more favorable wording, it's even easier to find a technicality/justification to make it legal. Say it's determined to be legal - that doesn't mean the other guy is going to forget or forgive, and he's going to look for the even the slightest justification to go after you.

The Imperium is not a particularly 'just' place by modern standards. Not everyone is equal, and even among those that are officially equal, some are more equal than others.

KE, I can't tell if you're serious.

Of COURSE the Imperium of Man cannot exist. Its a completely fictional construct, created for the express purpose of giving texture to an activity that involves grown men pushing tiny metal soldiers around on a table, rolling dice, occasionally doing a great deal of arm waving and hopefully having a good time.

As it is a fictional construct, your incredibly loose synopsis of the "creation of civilization" has no real bearing. Even if it was accurate, which I won't even bother to debate. However, by the rules set out by this fictional, hyper-violent, reality-distant setting engaging in a bit of ultra-violence for no more then "***** and giggles" is totally valid. Especially for extremely powerful and arrogant individuals, which RTs are. And especially if said violence gets them something they want. Or hurts a rival or enemy. And takes place in a location bound only by the laws you bring with you. Where the only witnesses are the ones you allow to live. In a setting where entire ships and crews have the potential to just disappear into the warp.

I could go on.

Of course such actions have consequences if discovered. But for those consequences to include auto-banishment to Iniquity and termination of RT status, such as you suggest, is not representative of the setting. Of course, at your table you can do exactly as you please, but published material just does not favor your interpretation.

After re-reading your post a couple of times, I cannot honestly tell if you seriously believe what you write, or if you're just having a massive joke at my expense (ie trolling me). Either way, I don't think there's much more to say.

I can say I'm glad that I'm not playing an RT at your table though...

Baron, I haven't overlooked a thing. You do me a disservice to think I haven't considered all facets of a Warrant of Trade. Yes, the Warrant grants astounding powers and privileges, even the power to declare and wage war, and even drag the Imperium of Man into that war. It does not, however, grant the Rogue Trader the power to war on the Imperium, and other Rogue Traders are representatives of the Imperium quite the same as your Rogue Trader is. When you attack another Rogue Trader you will eventually be called to task, just as an Inquisitor gets called to task when getting into a planet-devastating squabble with another Inquisitor. Then it comes down to a matter of legalities and the details surrounding the incident in question. The OP quite explicitly said they attacked the rival RT "just to f*** with them and for the fun of it all (paraphrased)." I have a hard time believing that will hold up under the scrutiny of investigation. The detectives of your universe might be incompetent but not in my universe. Your example of an RT engaging another to stop the Cold Trade WAS a good example of one of the incidents one might use to cover what was essentially an attack of opportunity. Once again, the OP did not even give a hint that this was the case. In fact, a cover-up was never suggested and the entire point of the post was to determine the amount of "loot we get from this dungeon."

And lastly, javcs, exactly what kind of dirt is that rival RT going to dig up on the original? Piracy isn't against the laws of the Imperium in your universe. In our own little world murder, ****, and arson are usually considered the "Big Three." They aren't even illegal in your universe. I'm guessing heresy, blasphemy, and xenos-dealing are your "Big Three." And that's fine. I'm just not going to buy into the notion that the others have disappeared as capital crimes.

Achem, And from this, we can see that Errant has totally departed from the game, because we do, indeed, have an ENTIRE SUPPLEMENT called Hostile Acquisitions where they spell out what the Imperium considers 'illegal' for Rogue Traders.

These are always illegal:

Heresy

Treason

Defrauding the Adeptus Terra

Sedition

Blasphamy

These are conditionally illegal:

Smuggling (Varies wildly between worlds and what exactly you are smuggling)

Piracy (Letters of Marque are effectively licenses to commit piracy, backed by the Adeptus Terra)

Murder, forced intercourse, and destruction of property are planetary offenses, (as what constitutes them is not uniform across even one world, let alone the whole of the Imperium) and besides the practical issues with arresting a Rogue trader, there's the issue that planetary law enforcement are specifically stated to lack the authority to do so.

Further, the Imperium is not based off modern concepts of law, but rather Feudal concepts of law (or at least what GW thought they were) wherein the 'rights' of the privileged class is enshrined in law. And example you might understand is jus primae noctis. Technically, it was the legal right to **** (and was until the 19th century in some regions)..

A man wronged by a Rogue trader, save an Imperial governor, who is technically his 'peer', has little legal recourse, because the trader is one of his 'betters'. Even among peers, it's more typical of this form of law that the issue be settled between them in one way or another. 'Trial by combat' is flat out stated to be a standard legal procedure., particularly since trials in the Imperium can take centuries to resolve, due to the massive mountain of legal precedent that has to be poured over.

'Trial by combat' is flat out stated to be a standard legal procedure

If that's the case, here I come Aspyce Chorda. I still have to pay her back for "acquiring" my colony.

EDIT: I made the mistake of happening to set down a colony on Grace, because I figured she wouldn't care/notice if I set it down on the opposite side of the planet. GUESS I WAS WRONG.

Ah yes, the "it's all just make-believe defense," is where the conversation goes when your stance cannot be expanded upon. At least it's better than the "I don't have to explain it, it's magic" defense.

But of course the real world is a legitimate measure of plausibility. It's all we have to go on. The difference between "suspension of disbelief" and "incomprehension of real-world processes" is not really that fine a line. It's just a smokescreen defense.

I could return the insults. Instead, let me take the course of an older and wiser man and point out that in this day of internet games you never know who you'll be playing with in the future. Don't pretend to know the future.

Yes Baron, 'Hostile Acquisitions' does cover crime in some detail. Did you read it or just suppose trumpeting victory would create enough of a smokescreen that others wouldn't? I refer all to 'Hostile Acquisitions (pp. 22-25).' Read it and form your own opinions. I'll provide a couple quotes.

"The penalty for those found guilty of piracy is nearly always death...Rogue Traders are a special case, and their punishments are enough to give even the most dedicated pirate pause."

Ah yes, the "it's all just make-believe defense," is where the conversation goes when your stance cannot be expanded upon. At least it's better than the "I don't have to explain it, it's magic" defense.

But of course the real world is a legitimate measure of plausibility. It's all we have to go on. The difference between "suspension of disbelief" and "incomprehension of real-world processes" is not really that fine a line. It's just a smokescreen defense.

I could return the insults. Instead, let me take the course of an older and wiser man and point out that in this day of internet games you never know who you'll be playing with in the future. Don't pretend to know the future.

Who are you responding to here?

Yes Baron, 'Hostile Acquisitions' does cover crime in some detail. Did you read it or just suppose trumpeting victory would create enough of a smokescreen that others wouldn't? I refer all to 'Hostile Acquisitions (pp. 22-25).' Read it and form your own opinions. I'll provide a couple quotes.

"The penalty for those found guilty of piracy is nearly always death...Rogue Traders are a special case, and their punishments are enough to give even the most dedicated pirate pause."

"Here where there is no rule of law, all that remains are words of honour and debt obligations. And the pirate heeds these when only it suits him, sailing the void under whatever codes he pleases or none at all. In a region without constraints, he is perhaps the most free but at the same time the most vilified. He will have no allies, no comrades, no partners—only victims and

pursuers, both crying for his head on a pike."

And I do believe that hearkens back to my first post on this thread, that said Rogue Trader will find no friendly ports.

Enjoy all.

You're missing the part that for Rogue Traders, sometimes their actions are not defined as Piracy , even when it would be for anyone else, or a Warrant without the same privileges.

This creates a line between the legitimized taking of prizes (privateering) and piracy. The line can be a narrow one, and is incredibly important.

Yes, when that line is found to have been crossed, the punishment is legendary. When it finally catches up to the offender.

But first it has to be found that the line has been crossed in the first place. Which is not an instantaneous process. Usually.

And even when someone is branded a pirate, the response takes time.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the OP almost certainly crossed the line between privateer and pirate based solely on the described actions. However, he won't immediately be branded a pirate and vilified, simply by the lags of transmission times, and the bureaucratic process between the incident being reported and it being found to be piracy, and the finding to be disseminated. It is also possible that, should the OP be extremely fortunate, his Warrant may have something in it or the associated documents that he (or rather, his lawyers) can utilize as a technical basis to have the OP's actions determined to be a legitimate privateering action he was authorized to undertake.

Errant, I think part of the problem is that you remain fixed on the example of the OP, and are extrapolating that to all actions, whereas Baron and I, at least, are speaking more generally.

Yes Baron, 'Hostile Acquisitions' does cover crime in some detail. Did you read it or just suppose trumpeting victory would create enough of a smokescreen that others wouldn't?

Yes, I did read it, but clearly you do not bother to read other people's posts in their entirety,

Note the words following 'piracy' when I put it under conditionally illegal: 'Letters of Marque are effectively licenses to commit piracy, backed by the Adeptus Terra'.

Why? Because a Letter of Marque (in 40k) is an amendment to a warrant that grants the right to seize certain Imperial (or other) ships and cargoes. (See, I believe, Into the Storm ). As long as the process is followed (and it can be a very speedy and somewhat questionable process in real life) then the seizure of vessels is totally legal and not piracy.

Typically the process would involve presenting evidence that the ship or it's cargo , belonged to or was bound for the subject of the letter to a admiralty court, or, in 40k, a member of the adeptus terra. This proof can be presented by one's lawyers, though the ship should be available for inspection should they wish it, and usually takes the form of things like cargo manifests, ships log, or a copy of some other identification. they then 'condemn' the ship, meaning the previous owners lose all legal claim to it.

A typical defense that might be mounted would be that the letter was invalid, and thus the seizure was piracy.

Further, a warrant may be amended so long ago, or so many times, that the Rogue trader themselves may not know if a given letter of marque is still valid, without research by his legal team.

All right, let's take a look at the real world. In the American justice system, if you have the right lawyer, the right resources and are even halfway smart about it, you can get away with murder. One of the, if not the most, cardinal of crimes in our world today. And that's in a system far more transparent and accountable than the Imperium. So again, laws can be twisted, are subject to interpretation and manipulation. Additionally, even in our real world, on a single planet, such cases can often drag on for years.

So yeah, even the real world does not support your supposition of auto-banishment and outlawing of the OP.

Additionally, the setting has several examples of powerful individuals within the setting doing "illegal" things, and getting away with it. There are also examples of RT dynasties going to war with one another. Lucien's Breath is just one such example, and according to all your arguments...such warfare should not be able to take place. And yet, clearly they do.

Basically you're in a corner. Its a corner of opinion, and unsupported by the real world, or the fictional setting itself. You tried to present your point of view as the de facto truth, but you got called on it. If that's insulting to you, than you should probably not present your opinion as a fact.

Ah yes, the "it's all just make-believe defense," is where the conversation goes when your stance cannot be expanded upon. At least it's better than the "I don't have to explain it, it's magic" defense.

But of course the real world is a legitimate measure of plausibility. It's all we have to go on. The difference between "suspension of disbelief" and "incomprehension of real-world processes" is not really that fine a line. It's just a smokescreen defense.

I could return the insults. Instead, let me take the course of an older and wiser man and point out that in this day of internet games you never know who you'll be playing with in the future. Don't pretend to know the future.

Who are you responding to here?

Yes Baron, 'Hostile Acquisitions' does cover crime in some detail. Did you read it or just suppose trumpeting victory would create enough of a smokescreen that others wouldn't? I refer all to 'Hostile Acquisitions (pp. 22-25).' Read it and form your own opinions. I'll provide a couple quotes.

"The penalty for those found guilty of piracy is nearly always death...Rogue Traders are a special case, and their punishments are enough to give even the most dedicated pirate pause."

"Here where there is no rule of law, all that remains are words of honour and debt obligations. And the pirate heeds these when only it suits him, sailing the void under whatever codes he pleases or none at all. In a region without constraints, he is perhaps the most free but at the same time the most vilified. He will have no allies, no comrades, no partners—only victims and

pursuers, both crying for his head on a pike."

And I do believe that hearkens back to my first post on this thread, that said Rogue Trader will find no friendly ports.

Enjoy all.

You're missing the part that for Rogue Traders, sometimes their actions are not defined as Piracy , even when it would be for anyone else, or a Warrant without the same privileges.

This creates a line between the legitimized taking of prizes (privateering) and piracy. The line can be a narrow one, and is incredibly important.

Yes, when that line is found to have been crossed, the punishment is legendary. When it finally catches up to the offender.

But first it has to be found that the line has been crossed in the first place. Which is not an instantaneous process. Usually.

And even when someone is branded a pirate, the response takes time.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the OP almost certainly crossed the line between privateer and pirate based solely on the described actions. However, he won't immediately be branded a pirate and vilified, simply by the lags of transmission times, and the bureaucratic process between the incident being reported and it being found to be piracy, and the finding to be disseminated. It is also possible that, should the OP be extremely fortunate, his Warrant may have something in it or the associated documents that he (or rather, his lawyers) can utilize as a technical basis to have the OP's actions determined to be a legitimate privateering action he was authorized to undertake.

Errant, I think part of the problem is that you remain fixed on the example of the OP, and are extrapolating that to all actions, whereas Baron and I, at least, are speaking more generally.

I've parsed the conversation so you can more easily follow along. I'm not missing anything. I understand that there are such things as privateers and Letters of Marque.

Yes Baron, 'Hostile Acquisitions' does cover crime in some detail. Did you read it or just suppose trumpeting victory would create enough of a smokescreen that others wouldn't?

Yes, I did read it, but clearly you do not bother to read other people's posts in their entirety,

Note the words following 'piracy' when I put it under conditionally illegal: 'Letters of Marque are effectively licenses to commit piracy, backed by the Adeptus Terra'.

Why? Because a Letter of Marque (in 40k) is an amendment to a warrant that grants the right to seize certain Imperial (or other) ships and cargoes. (See, I believe, Into the Storm ). As long as the process is followed (and it can be a very speedy and somewhat questionable process in real life) then the seizure of vessels is totally legal and not piracy.

Typically the process would involve presenting evidence that the ship or it's cargo , belonged to or was bound for the subject of the letter to a admiralty court, or, in 40k, a member of the adeptus terra. This proof can be presented by one's lawyers, though the ship should be available for inspection should they wish it, and usually takes the form of things like cargo manifests, ships log, or a copy of some other identification. they then 'condemn' the ship, meaning the previous owners lose all legal claim to it.

A typical defense that might be mounted would be that the letter was invalid, and thus the seizure was piracy.

Further, a warrant may be amended so long ago, or so many times, that the Rogue trader themselves may not know if a given letter of marque is still valid, without research by his legal team.

It seems pretty obvious to me that I read the posts in their entirety. I can respond to them without the need to constantly refer back to them, without requiring quotes to remind me of their exact content, and without the need to parse the conversation into easily identifiable chunks.

Now I don't know where you read about the Adeptus Terra issuing Letters of Marque, and I'm not claiming that such things do not exist, but they probably belong under the acquisition heading of "Unique."

All right, let's take a look at the real world. In the American justice system, if you have the right lawyer, the right resources and are even halfway smart about it, you can get away with murder. One of the, if not the most, cardinal of crimes in our world today. And that's in a system far more transparent and accountable than the Imperium. So again, laws can be twisted, are subject to interpretation and manipulation. Additionally, even in our real world, on a single planet, such cases can often drag on for years.

So yeah, even the real world does not support your supposition of auto-banishment and outlawing of the OP.

Additionally, the setting has several examples of powerful individuals within the setting doing "illegal" things, and getting away with it. There are also examples of RT dynasties going to war with one another. Lucien's Breath is just one such example, and according to all your arguments...such warfare should not be able to take place. And yet, clearly they do.

Basically you're in a corner. Its a corner of opinion, and unsupported by the real world, or the fictional setting itself. You tried to present your point of view as the de facto truth, but you got called on it. If that's insulting to you, than you should probably not present your opinion as a fact.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, again with the army of lawyers. The rich can get away with things the poor cannot. Redundancy, yet I'm the one the doesn't read the entire post.

So you're in disagreement with javcs that everyone here thinks the OP crossed the line. Argue with him. That's his statement. Yes, I'll jump in on his side when you make your argument against him.

I don't know where I presented anything as fact. It's my opinion. My opinion is better than yours, and that is also an opinion. So we can be clear in the future...anything you see me post on these forums is my opinion. If it's a fact, I'll state that explicity and provide you more references than you'll care to read. Now that's a fact.

I'm saying that from what we were given, it certain looks like the OP's described actions are piracy. But it is very possible that the OP's Warrant has some clause/privilege/fine print/etc that would allow the OP's actions to be redefined from piracy to legally allowed activities, either outright or by a legal ruling after sufficient application of lawyers and influence. However, in the latter event, the legal process would likely take a great deal of time for a final decision, whether or not it was decided for or against the OP.

Now I don't know where you read about the Adeptus Terra issuing Letters of Marque, and I'm not claiming that such things do not exist, but they probably belong under the acquisition heading of "Unique."

Into the Storm, page 76. 'dynasties and patrons must petition each other, and the Adeptus Terra, for the Privilege'.

As written this means that the authority backing the Letter of Marque in that case is not the patrons authority, but that of the Adeptus Terra officer who authorized it. The influence and power of the patron is used in acquiring the right for the letter to be issued in the first place, but the final authority is that of whoever signed off on it (and, by extension, the Adeptus Terra). The example given was interesting as they were forced to work around the authority of the adeptus terra, in the form of the Lucid Court (and possibly the Sector Governor), rather than challenge the Rogue trader directly in court. They didn't bring legal proceedings against him, they created a deniable asset in the form of a rival rogue trader backed by two of the other major powers alongside the Adeptus Terra, the Imperial Navy and the Inquisition.

I have to agree with Baron and co here. The Imperium is a feudal society and the thing it cares about most is propagating itself. As long as that is assured, its vassals can do to each other (within reason) what they wish. There have been rebellions in which the Planetary Governor has been deposed and the Imperium didn't lift a finger, simply because the rebelling faction assured an emissary that they would continue paying the tithe.

Of course, a Rogue Trader intent on piracy should make sure he's seen as that much more valuable to the Imperium than his targets are...

More of the same. Congratulations.

In the interest of moving away from some of the vehemence this thread is starting to display, may I suggest; If one RT initiated an attack against another without due cause it's 'technically' piracy! However, enforcing that is another matter! I would suggest an opposed influence/profit check. If the victim's party wins, then the players RT is at least known to have committed an act of piracy and the wheels of Imperial justice, however slow, will begin to turn. However, If the players side wins the test then various excuses/arguments have been put forward that essentially clear the RT of any wrongdoing. This does not mean the opposing dynasty will not go to war with you but at least the Imperium at large will not!

The truth IMO is that both sides of this argument and their consequences are equally valid! It all depends on who makes the better arguments to the various 'official' entities!

I like the PF vs PF roll. One could even include Talents like Peer (Imperial Navy or Administration) to assist the tests. Like a +10 or something. Just food for thought.

In the interest of moving away from some of the vehemence this thread is starting to display, may I suggest; If one RT initiated an attack against another without due cause it's 'technically' piracy! However, enforcing that is another matter! I would suggest an opposed influence/profit check. If the victim's party wins, then the players RT is at least known to have committed an act of piracy and the wheels of Imperial justice, however slow, will begin to turn. However, If the players side wins the test then various excuses/arguments have been put forward that essentially clear the RT of any wrongdoing. This does not mean the opposing dynasty will not go to war with you but at least the Imperium at large will not!

The truth IMO is that both sides of this argument and their consequences are equally valid! It all depends on who makes the better arguments to the various 'official' entities!

In fact, that's been stated several times, hence more of the same. I'm unwilling to continue the conversation without something more substantive than "my vote goes for..."

So yes, let's move on.

I like the PF vs PF roll. One could even include Talents like Peer (Imperial Navy or Administration) to assist the tests. Like a +10 or something. Just food for thought.

I've been wondering if Peer and Good Reputation talents shouldn't have an effect on PF as well as Fel checks.

I like the PF vs PF roll. One could even include Talents like Peer (Imperial Navy or Administration) to assist the tests. Like a +10 or something. Just food for thought.

I've been wondering if Peer and Good Reputation talents shouldn't have an effect on PF as well as Fel checks.

For some of them, it was my understanding that Commerce was a good little booster-skill for Acquisitions, and, being a Fellowship skill, you get your bonus/penalty, depending on who you are trying to schmooze or intimidate. While I am certain that you do know that, it is a direct, at least much of the time? augment to your PF, at least using Acquisition that cares about your PF, with some markets. Beyond that, I'm not personally sure how the Peer --> Profit Factor relationship would work. With PF being more "what you have and who you know", more than just money you sit on, many Fellowship skills SHOULD feed into making friends, greasing palms, and keeping the peace, earning the Achievement Points that gain you extra PF for Endeavors, if you use those. Any other ideas on how the two might mesh?

I haven't given a great deal of thought to the mechanic. It's more of a gut feeling that these should have a greater effect. Then again, much of what the RT party wants comes from the Mechanicus, so it might be that it's best just to leave it within the sphere of Commerce or Bargain.

Still, Commerce and Bargain seem to have little enough effect. It's an opposed test v. WP, Scrutiny, or their Commerce or Bargain skills, which in the case of most NPC merchant-types is probably going to fall in the 30 WP, 40-50 Scrutiny, or 50-60 Commerce and Bargain range. Okay, so most of the RT crew dealing with this is going to have Commerce or Bargain at near the 100-mark, but that's what, an average +10 or so to PF? And keep in mind that the Peer or Good Reputation only accounted for +2. It just doesn't seem like that much.

I'm not calling it broke, by any means.

I think very good arguments have been made either way on how lenient or punitive Imperial Justice can be. I think instead of arguing that other people are having badwrongfun, m y thought is that a GM should decide on what the culture is before the game starts, pick an interpretation, and then decide on how the RT's work in the expanse for the flavor of their game. Some groups would love a free for all anarchy in the expanse, and others want a more warm and fuzzy game where they don't have to worry too much about being stabbed in the back by their supposed peers. Either way is fine, really, so long as the group is having fun.

For example, in the game I last ran, RTs were more subtle about stabbing each other in the back. Rarely did they pick direct fights with each other, and I saw the canon war between Chorda and whatshisnamewithagrandcruiser as something exceptional. It was more a gentleman's agreement to get along out in the expanse unless there was sufficient motivation, such as going chaos or screwing over too many RTs, who make an alliance of convenience to take out the trouble maker so they can go back to making $$$.

And yes, the PCs did encounter a down on his luck RT who tried to kill them and take their stuff, so the PCs killed the NPC RT and took their stuff. I played up realistic consequences more or less described in this thread and everyone had fun with it.