Communication in 40K

By venkelos, in Rogue Trader

I was poking through the Time Synch thread, and it sort of got me wondering something else; in 40K, they don't seem to have hyperspatial communication. If you want to converse with someone any real distance away, say even from Scintilla to your ship out at Zayth, astropathic communication will be the only way. This will entail you having to formulate a message, give it to your AT, and have him start pinballing it off the heads of other astropaths, until it can eventually get to Scintilla, possibly to a specific astropath, or one employed by the public, depending, get decoded, be sent to the receiving party (not sure how that step is officially done, either), then they reply, and the message pinballs again, on and on. It just seems weird, if I accept it, that there is no "real-time communication". If one of your scouts picks up an opportunity, say he hears about the Dread Pearl auction, and thinks you might be interested, you can't talk to them, get info, clarify stuff, and then make a plan; there will be days of "waiting for the telegraph", and it seems surprising anything can get done.

How has this pack of communication affected your games? Did your players, maybe more familiar with Star Trek, Star Wars, or any other setting where transmissions can be burst-transmitted through Hyperspace/Subspace to allow face-to-face conversing have difficulty being effectively cut off from everything, or am I missing an aspect of grimdark astrotelepathy?

Nope, this is pretty much accurate. This is also what makes a Tyranid invasion so terrifying because by the time the Imperium realises a planet is out of contact, it's probably already dead.

My players regularly want to send messages to their business partners or request backup, and then it requires sitting back and waiting, without actually knowing whether or not it arrives. This is one of the reasons why setting up a stable base of operations is so important, because then you can find and bring messages centrally. Also thanks to their usually fantastic Navigator rolls, and terrible Astropathic telepathy rolls, they frequently beat the reports they were trying to send.

This was always a problem for me first playing Rogue Trader, and finding that messages took so long. It gets to the point where you come to realize why so many Rogue Traders try to be so independent: you can't expect help in a reasonable amount of time.

That is exactly it. This is one of the reasons everything works the way it does in the Imperium. Reinforcements can take months, years, or even decades. Sometimes centuries. Reports are dodgy at the best of times, people are on different time schedules, and everything takes time.

This is half the reason Rogue Traders exist and rarely have massive fleets, since they'd either have to control those fleets "in person" or from some stationary point, at least to a degree.

My players have never had problems with this, really, but most or all of them also know a lot about the 40k universe, so it's never been questioned. It really depends on the approach of your game and how you play it, and I'm not really a long-time GM, most roleplaying being very "down to Earth" or "in person" - they don't have that many assets to manage that aren't within fist's reach.

Being cut off from everything is definitely part of the setting. Tonight's session, I'm going to try to play up the player's isolation as they travel two months in the warp, from Port Wander to the 13th Station of Passage. Bar a massive screw-up by my players, anyway.

Bar a massive screw-up by my players, anyway.

It's inevitable. Which is why I love d RPing games. :D

Edited by Nameless2all

Pretty much, yeah. Back to telegraph (and the local Guild Astropathicus can be modelled rather well over the telegraph companies of the 19th century- if a message is receipted by a public astropath which doesn't have a forwarding address in the header (metadata: it is important), then it will be copied and passed to the local savants for deciphering. Then once complete, albeit likely in a private code or encryption set by the sender for security, they may either send physical couriers to the addressee to deliver it (remember: metadata in the header), servitor-drones to announce a message waiting, or s simple call through the local vox/phone system to inform them of such (exact method may depend on local fashions, and the instructions in the header)).

That said, there are indications in the ( admittedly old ) fluff that real-time conversations are possible via astropathic link, but I suspect there are serious penalties regarding range and warp disruptions. Maybe requiring a massive choir at either end (although a "live" speech broadcast via astropath may only require the augmented choir for the sender), probably also a special psychic amplification apparatus.

I personally wouldn't let this be a day-to-day occurrence, particularly for ship-board astropaths wishing to communicate with a distant solar system (although using them for a ship-to-ship conference across a solar system is actually rather plausible, and certainly more practical than spending days/weeks to get close enough for a vox conference without massive transmission lag), but I can see larger planetary Guilds setting up a dedicated "real-time" channel with the subsector capital, who may have one set up to the sector capital, to the segmentum capital, to Terra, for use in emergencies or other special occasions. Think of it as the Red Phone.

Edited by Alasseo

That is the way it works, though you have to be a high ranking astropath just to get the basic job done. I don't think that even with the choir rules added that astropaths have the range they require. That needs to be redone.

But consider the alternatives. Think about how the universe of 40k changes if you have real time communications. Think about how the markets will work, **** the military aspects. That will become subsidiary to the "globalized" marketplace. "What, the price of sows bellies just dropped on Omicron VIII? Buy! Buy!" Think about how computerized stock market systems mess with the current economic environment and multiply that by several million. The scale is literally unimaginable.

I suppose, but let's use the Dread Pearl as my example; I will endeavor to not give anything away. Lord Qel-Drake is sitting on his laurels, relaxing after he and his Maidens just finished rooting through some ancient, trap-infested ruin, out by the Rifts of Hecaton. Back on Footfall, one of his contacts/ears receives word of the auction at the Obsidian Emporial. Am I supposed to believe that Steve the Ear learns of this opportunity, finds a "public Astropath" (I don't know if the Qel-Drake Dynasty would employ numerous astropaths, and happen to have one on Footfall, for his agents to use), dictates a message to his master, who waits however long that takes to get there, then Qel-Drake plans out what he'll do, make the long? warp trip back to Footfall, and hope to get there in time for the Fortelling, a one-time, one day event. Other than Fate being nice from time to time, it just seems unlikely that the planning could all work, and you get there in time, with warp travel and communication both being so random. I'm glad it does work, but I'm not sure how it ever does. LotR features around eight potential competitors, and if they weren't ALL on Footfall at the time, the chances that they ALL got the message from their Steve, then made the trip from wherever, and happened to be there (how did the Seven Sisters pick the date, other than super-psykerdom?), you wouldn't have that many others bidding on your prize.

I also like the idea of an astropath holding your hands, and projecting the images and words another is saying into your head, while the other party is doing the same trick on their end, to allow for "face-to-face" dialogue, but I'm not sure if any but the best astropaths could perform the feat, and it would have to be taxing in the extreme. In a homebrew game we played, our Kill Team had an astropath assigned by an Inquisitor, an ancient prune of a woman who smoked multiple lho-sticks at once, because she knew she wouldn't live long enough to die from cancer. We used to joke that she was racing the cigarettes, to see which would burn out/down faster, herself, or the smokes. This stunt would definitely give the lho-sticks a run for their money.

Edited by venkelos

So, you don't run the Dread Pearl adventure that way. The Lord Slokum just happens to be in Footfall when the Foretelling is announced.

For some unknown reasons (adventure modules aren't written by the same people that write rules?) FFG adventure modules don't work very well according to FFG rules. Miloslav engines will ruin your Dread Pearl adventure, as will Runcasters, or anything else that modifies time (unless you hand wave time away...many do).

And keep in mind, that for every person getting their jollies by using astropaths to tickle their senses, another three will be using the same technique to corner the galactic market in widgets.

You also seem to be assuming the Foretelling was a short-notice event. At least in my game, the players got the message that there would be a Foretelling when the halo stars aligned... in just over 8 months. (Although in the module, however, I think it mentions the 8 are the "Rogue Traders who could arrive on only a few weeks notice.")

Public astropaths are common, and an important part of any planet/system. The critical thing is, Astropaths don't have to understand a message to send it. They's one reason why cyphers are so important - its how you keep astropaths from reading your mail, as it were. Also worth noting, because there are Astropaths at nearly every civilized system and they act as relays, unless you're actually in the expanse, you only need to get a message a few systems over, which a Psy-rating 1 with a full choir and the associated mechanical amplifiers can do. (which is what I assume is on most worlds)

As others note above, the slow nature of both communication and travel is part of what keep the Imperium in this fractured, feudal, semi-independent nature. Speed helps unity, and the Imperium is anything but truly unified.

The problem with Astrotelepathy is that the designers seriously underpowered its range.

A Rank 1, the AT can send a message into orbit. Whooptydoo. My vox can do that, and more reliably on most occasions. To send a message back to Footall from Winterscale's Realm requires a Rank 4 Astropath with a full Choir and a Relay (aboard most ships, granted), but to send a message from Winterscale's Realm to Port Wander requires a Rank 7 Astropath (your game is almost over) with a full Choir and Relay AND the Astropath pushing it (risky). It just doesn't seem right to gimp the poor Astropath on their major function till the campaign is nearing its end.

I can see that, although I'm not sure what levels would be better. Astropaths aren't supposed to be sending messages on their own, particularly not for huge distances. By most fluff, it takes choirs. What actually got me was that they capped the choir at 5. I personally would have put it at 10, or even 15.

As I noted above, I've assumed and taken away from the fluff that the vast majority of the Astropathic network consists of half-dozen or even several dozen strong choirs of relatively low level psychers. The attachment of a single astropath is only for secure short range (intrastellar) communication.

Also, the "normal" method of sending a message to Port Wander would be to send it to Footfall, and have it relayed by the choir there. Or if your on the other side, Damaris to Footfall to Port Wander. The use of an Astropath Transendent & small choir to send a message fully across a sub-sector or sector should be a (!) point, at least to the majority of the Imperium.

(Also, rank one can send to nearby solar, so Venus to Mars and the like.)

Yeah, my bad, Psy Rating 1, not Rank 1.

Still, the PC Astropath should be able to reliably send a message from one sub-sector to another when they walk aboard the ship, otherwise why are they the Dynasty's representative on the Astropathic Choir?

Well, do remember there are those poor buggers who are put in beacon bouyes. A tiny coffin with a life sustainer and a psy-foci, with the astropath shoved inside. Then you put it out of the way, and it can bounce the signal onward. I imagine chains of them through most sectors.

Yeah bear in mind too that most organizations or bigger dynasties have multiple ships. Winterscale isn't going to need a rank 7 astropath to communicate with Port Wander because he could at any time have a dozen ships that can daisy-chain the message for him.

The only fluff i've come across of higher powered astropaths having real time conversations are Gary-Stu level Astartes Librarians who can contact their forces whole sectors away instantaneously and honestly, i don't much like that idea.

So yeah, snail mail being passed from ship to ship that could take centuries to reach your destination or astropaths that could take months relaying a message through other astropaths to your destination - those are the two options stellar communication in 40k.

Or break into the webway and setup communication beacons throughout it and corner the market as the first and proper FTL communication network, then cry as Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Chaos and the Inquisition screw your plans up permanently.

A daisy-chain of messages is still information that is months or years old. A trip from Port Wander to Footfall averages 4 days in the Warp. That's an average of 48 days in the normal world. Relying on that over an astropath that can do the same in a couple days doesn't seem very efficient. Plus, an astropath is less expensive than a dozen ships, even a Rank 7 astropath.

On a side note, I'm beginning to rethink the scale of ship numbers for RT dynasties. I recall reading recently where the largest civilian fleet in the Imperium belongs to a navigator house, and it only had 47 ships.

Astropathing is usually more efficient than Navigating, but it has the old computer programmer flaw of ACK/NACK, where you have no idea if the message was received or not until you get there. Also an Astropath may be cheaper, but you still have to be in good with the Adeptus Astronomica if you're going to get one, otherwise you might just recruit some random blind person who swallowed a warp eel for a dare and now has uncontrollable psychic powers, and delusions of glory.

And Quick, I don't know what the rules should be changed to, but in the next game I GM I'll make sure that even a Rank 1 Astropath with a full choir and a relay can at least get a message to the next sub-sector. I think I'll make the relay part and parcel of the Astropathic Choir Chamber component, too, even though the relay appears in the core rulebook and the Chambers come later. It just feels right.

Starting astropath is psy rating 2 (iirc), choir gives +5 (iirc) so thats already psy rating 7, he could be using any number of other items to boost the psy rating, not to mention Pushing if its really urgent, so its quite easy to get your psy rating to 10+...

Any number of other items, such as?...

And, IMO, ANY RT ship should be able to contact the next sub-sector, so those items would have to readily available.

I do like the idea of astropathic relay buoys forming communications chains but then those chains would be subject to interdiction by pirates as everyone would have to know their location to make use of them. Then again, maybe they only need to know their location within a certain degree of error, in which case they might be very difficult to find and interdict. It bears thought.

Aetheric Wave Spars and Gheist drugs to name but two items off the top of my head.

I'd have to look them up but I don't recall drugs that boost the PR for long enough to enable astropathic sending. Wave spars, yes, but they aren't supposed to be an everyday occurrence.

Narratively no, there aren't really enough items to make the astropathic signals work RAW, but mechanically there's enough stuff to game the system with.

I can't believe I let this one slip all those months ago, but choirs are not limited to 5. The early errata changed that to 10.

So, we've discussed "communication" on here, and the Internet in 40K, elsewhere, but how much information is stored, if you will, on a ship? Somehow, the Explorator, Seneschal, and other info-driven jobs learn and research topics, but if the party runs into something out in boonies Expanse, such the hulk of a once mighty Imperial vessel, or a strange planet that might have only ever had one Imperial team visit it, centuries ago, how do they "search for information"? I suppose I can accept that it's all stored in the core cogitator(s), but WHAT all gets stored in there, and by whom? If I want to know something about stuff I'm not familiar, I can hop on the Web, ask Google, query Wikipedia, or come here, and pick the brains of others, but what about the august lore-brokers of your dynasty? I argue it is very hard, based on presented fluff, for your "agents in the field" to get you possible leads ("the Seven Witches of Footfall are having an auction!"), with the only way being they find a random "commercial" astropath, somewhere, and have them start it off toward you, wherever your ship is, and, not to poke at E. Knight, but I seem to recall you being the one who is a bit more limiting on "just having some astropaths around, on your ship", but you have to have one, or get no message. So, whose managing what information font on your ship?