This came up in discussion with one of my friends recently, and got me thinking.

Can Sense's defensive Control Upgrade be used when the character is flying a starship?

Prior to the FaD Beta being released, I would have likely said yes, since it matches up with instances of Jedi using the "quick reflexes" granted by their limited prescient abilities; to quote Qui-Gon, "he can see things before they happen, that's why he appears to have such quick reflexes.

However, with the Starfighter Ace having a talent (Intuitive Evasion) that does much the same (commit a Force die to upgrade difficultly of all ranged attacks against a vehicle you're piloting), now I'm starting to wonder.

Each option has it's pros and cons; Sense is cheaper to get the two difficultly upgrades for and only requires a single Force die, but can only be used at most twice per turn, while Intuitive Evasion requires two ranks to get the two difficulty upgrades, costs strain, and you'd need FR 2 to get the full benefit, but it's also used against every attack made against you (handy thing if you find yourself outnumbered). Stacking them would be pretty crazy, but you'd need FR 3 at least in order to do that.

I could have sworn that one of the designers (Sam Stewart maybe?) had said somewhere that both of Sense's ongoing effect Control Upgrades could be used by the pilot of a starship, but I can't seem to track down where I heard/read that.

Thoughts?

I say yes, it can be used in starships. I see things like Intuitive Evasion being similar to Overwhelm Emotions in the Force Sensitive Exile and the Influence Force Power; they're essentially a more circumstantial, less powerful form of Force Powers.

I hope so, my build is based on it.

Yeah, I'm still thinking you could use the defensive Control Upgrade in starship combat. The offensive one I don't really see being a problem since it's the character making an attack roll, but the defensive one brings with it the question of "who's being targeted?" If it's limited to attacks that directly target the character, then the answer would be "no, it doesn't work in vehicle combat since it's the vehicle being targeted, not the character."

Sam Stewart said on the Order 66 podcast that Sense worked when you're flying a Starship.

And the advantage of Intuitive Evasion is that it's part of your skill tree, so you're not spreading your XP out among another tree (Sense). The downside is that Intuitive Evasion is focused specifically on Starship combat, where Sense is universally useful.

Yeah, I'm still thinking you could use the defensive Control Upgrade in starship combat. The offensive one I don't really see being a problem since it's the character making an attack roll, but the defensive one brings with it the question of " who's being targeted? " If it's limited to attacks that directly target the character, then the answer would be "no, it doesn't work in vehicle combat since it's the vehicle being targeted, not the character."

You're over thinking it. Just KISS the rules...

Sense works only on individual attacks and is highly limited. Intuitive Evasion works on every attack but is more expensive and more difficult to improve.

I would say that Sense does work.

The Sense defensive thing only works against one attack per round. Intuitive Evasion from Starfighter Ace works for any number of attacks until the character's next turn, so Sense doesn't really steal their thunder.

Sam Stewart said on the Order 66 podcast that Sense worked when you're flying a Starship.

And the advantage of Intuitive Evasion is that it's part of your skill tree, so you're not spreading your XP out among another tree (Sense). The downside is that Intuitive Evasion is focused specifically on Starship combat, where Sense is universally useful.

Thought that's where I heard it, but couldn't be sure and didn't have the time go digging through the show archives.

Imagine someone with both! I would allow it, but every Force user in Every game I have ever ran has taken Sense.

Imagine someone with both! I would allow it, but every Force user in Every game I have ever ran has taken Sense.

To me Sense is a must. Every other power is negotiable, but Sense is a must.

Sam Stewart said way back in the Shadows of a Black Sun FFG in store FAQ that it would work for snubfighters but probably not freighters.

I think it should work. It is really easy to hit in this game.

Imagine someone with both! I would allow it, but every Force user in Every game I have ever ran has taken Sense.

To me Sense is a must. Every other power is negotiable, but Sense is a must.

On one hand, I would agree - Sense is a must. But that is because we've all seen the movies where Sense is one of the first things taught by the Jedi (Luke in the original trilogy and the younglings in the prequels all learning to deflect remotes).

But on the other hand perhaps that is just a Jedi thing. Other Force traditions (or self-taughts) might be different.

I think it'd be fine if you were piloting a fighter, even one with a couple other seats - as long as the character with Sense is piloting. It starts getting a bit iffy around silhouette 4 - think the Falcon or a Skipray, and I don't think it makes sense for silhouette 5 and above. Even with superior reflexes, ships that size are only so nimble.

I've would go by the simple rule: if you can use evasive maneuvers with the vehicle, then sense is okay to use.
So 3+ speed and silhouette 1-4 and the sense guy is piloting, i would say it's okay.

I would cautiously say yes. Talents overlap effects with force powers from time to time, and just because a talent exists doesn't invalidate the use of the power in the same circumstance.

For me, the biggest reason I can think of to say yes is Luke using "the force" to target the 2m hole like a womprat. To me, that is a clear sign of him using the attack upgrade of the sense power. Sure, it could have been intense focus, even both (again, a talent that is similar to sense though more broad in scope), but I think that Jedi fliers often used sense and the evasion talent (hence why most jedi starfighter early models didn't have shields at all).

But I wouldn't cry if it didn't either. it's probably (in a relative sense of xp investment, overall effect, and commitment cost) the most powerful force power in the game, so limiting it's areas of influence may not be a huge hit.

But on the other hand perhaps that is just a Jedi thing. Other Force traditions (or self-taughts) might be different.

he was a big fan of being green.

But on the other hand perhaps that is just a Jedi thing. Other Force traditions (or self-taughts) might be different.

Sure. I can agree with that. I still feel Sense should be a foundational thing, can't affect stuff if you can't tell how the Force moves through it... but that could just have been Yoda being a damned hippy.

Yeah, I kind of feel like one should have Sense before being able to pick up most of the other powers, but I could see someone intuitively using the Force without really knowing what they're doing, especially for things like Enhance or the Control Upgrade from Influence that adds your Force rating to your social skills rolls.

But on the other hand perhaps that is just a Jedi thing. Other Force traditions (or self-taughts) might be different.

Sure. I can agree with that. I still feel Sense should be a foundational thing, can't affect stuff if you can't tell how the Force moves through it... but that could just have been Yoda being a damned hippy.

See, I think of Sense as the first step in understanding what the Force is. How it interrelates to the universe around you. But understanding how something works isn't necessarily required to utilize it. To use a very simple example, I can drive my car, but I don't know how the mechanice all work together to make it go.

So I could see a character utilizing the Force without really understanding how they are doing it.