If the closest point meets the range requirement, but if it is out of arc then the shot is taken out of arc and doesn't fulfill Tacticians triggering condition.

And this is completely wrong. A ship is still within arc even if the closest point is outside of its arc. Read page 10, where being within arc is defined by ANY part of the ship's base being within the arc area. You are only taking an out-of-arc shot if no part of the ship's base is within the arc region.

What matters for tactician is what path the shot takes. For tactician to trigger the shot must be, from closest point to closest, at range 2 and in arc.

You are taking an out of arc shot if the closest point to closest point, on a ship that can fire outside of its firing arc, is outside of arc. The shot follows the closest point to closest point (because that is what you use to determine if the shot is obstructed) and if that line is out of arc then tactician will not trigger because the shot was taken out of arc.

iPeregrine, you're being a bit strident. I think it might be a good idea to doubt your infallibility just a little. It seems a bit far-fetched to me that Sergovan is fabricating his communication with Frank Brooks.

Thanks "Hassle".

It is not the first time someone has questioned my e-mail posts from Frank.

I have done a screenshot of one a little while ago to prove that I copy/paste straight form the e-mail.

The only thing I change is the colour, because black on grey is really hard to read.

What matters for tactician is what path the shot takes. For tactician to trigger the shot must be, from closest point to closest, at range 2 and in arc.

That's not what the card says. It says you must perfom an attack against a ship inside your firing arc (checked by the area of the arc) at range 2 (checked by closest point to closest point). These are two separate conditions, and are checked independently.

You are taking an out of arc shot if the closest point to closest point, on a ship that can fire outside of its firing arc, is outside of arc.

And now you're making the absurd argument that you can take an out-of-arc shot against a ship that is within your firing arc. I don't know about you, but I think that one requirement of making an out-of-arc attack is that the target should actually be outside of your arc.

Since when are they two separate conditions? And why are they checked independently? Tactician is used AFTER you perform an attack, and that attack is performed in the normal fashion for the ship. End of story.

I don't know about you, but I think that one requirement of making an out-of-arc attack is that the target should actually be outside of your arc.

Part of it is outside of your arc, and that is the part you are shooting at. Therefore your shot is out-of-arc and Tactician does not trigger.

The closest point of hte ship must meet both conditions.

Could you cite a rule for this? Because the rules very clearly state that a ship is within arc if ANY part of its base is within arc. Where the line from closest point to closest point is has absolutely nothing to do with this. The only thing the FAQ for tactician does is clarify what should already have been obvious: even though it is an ability that refers to a ship's primary arc you still measure range normally.

It's unnecessary to find a ruling on this because there is no rule precedent that has ever allowed you to measure to two points on an enemy ship for the purpose of an attack. On a ship with a turret weapon, if the closest point is outside of your firing arc and is not at Range 2, then your attack is not at Range 2 or in arc, because you cannot measure to two points for the purposes of a single attack. A single line of fire must be established, therefore all rules apply to the same line of fire. The only POSSIBLE exception would be that no rule exists that says you can't AIM at a point further away.

It's unnecessary to find a ruling on this because there is no rule precedent that has ever allowed you to measure to two points on an enemy ship for the purpose of an attack.

You aren't measuring to two points, you're measuring to a point and checking an area. You determine range by measuring to the closest point, and arc by checking if any part of the target's base is within the arc region. Your "determine arc by checking if the line between closest points is within the arc region" method is not found in any rules published by FFG.

I just want to go on the record and state IPeregrine that I argued your very viewpoint in this rules thread, http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109927-tactical-falcon-question/, before I got Frank's e-mail.

For tactician to trigger the shot must occur in arc, not outside of arc.

It's unnecessary to find a ruling on this because there is no rule precedent that has ever allowed you to measure to two points on an enemy ship for the purpose of an attack.

You aren't measuring to two points, you're measuring to a point and checking an area. You determine range by measuring to the closest point, and arc by checking if any part of the target's base is within the arc region. Your "determine arc by checking if the line between closest points is within the arc region" method is not found in any rules published by FFG.

No, but it's in the FAQ under Tactician, that closest point to closest point is the requirement. It doesn't mention ANYWHERE that you recheck for arc. The attack is taken to the closest point.

No, but it's in the FAQ under Tactician, that closest point to closest point is the requirement.

The tactician FAQ tells you how to determine range. It does not tell you how to determine arc, therefore you use the standard method: a ship is in arc if any part of its base is in the arc region.

Also, when arguing otherwise please keep in mind that outmaneuver exists. Do you really want to establish a precedent where you are considered out of arc (and get the benefit of outmaneuver) if the closest point of your base is outside the arc region, even if 90% of your base is within that region?

It sounds like a lot of money on Phantom expansions. What else comes with Tactician?

Outmaneuver

A ship with a turret weapon (including a ship with a 360-degree primary turret) is affected by Outmaneuver unless it is defending against a ship that is inside the printed, shaded firing arc on their ship token, and only gains the benefit of Outmaneuver when attacking a ship inside the printed, shaded firing arc on its ship token.

From the FAQ.

Outmaneuver

A ship with a turret weapon (including a ship with a 360-degree primary turret) is affected by Outmaneuver unless it is defending against a ship that is inside the printed, shaded firing arc on their ship token, and only gains the benefit of Outmaneuver when attacking a ship inside the printed, shaded firing arc on its ship token.

From the FAQ.

Yes, but that's not the point. If you change how "are you in arc" is checked for tactician then it sets a precedent that other cards that check arc are resolved differently. If tactician checks arc by drawing a line between two points instead of checking if any part of one ship's base is within the arc region of the other then why shouldn't that procedure be used for other ships? So what if half my base is inside your arc region, the closest point on my base is outside that region and therefore I get my outmaneuver bonus. After all, when you just tried to use tactician against me you said that my ship was outside your arc.

The alternative is that you make a special-case ruling that has tactician check arc using a completely different method that no other card or rule uses. And then you get absurd situations where ship A is within ship B's firing arc and can't use outmaneuver, but then when ship B returns fire it turns out that ship A isn't in ship B's firing arc after all and ship B can't use tactician.

I say just let it go guys.

No matter how you explain it, and back up your claims he is just going to deny everything because he cannot admit when he is wrong.

He will find our when he plays with someone and they call him on it.

I think your just wasting your time trying to point out the obvious.

You say the sky is blue, but he clearly wants to say it's white

I say just let it go guys.

No matter how you explain it, and back up your claims he is just going to deny everything because he cannot admit when he is wrong.

He will find our when he plays with someone and they call him on it.

I think your just wasting your time trying to point out the obvious.

You say the sky is blue, but he clearly wants to say it's white

No, it could be white and cloudy, but then I fear he'll say it's green. I for one, am happy to accept Frank's ruling, and believe, without a doubt, that Sergovan's email was genuine, and that's good enough for me.

You say the sky is blue, but he clearly wants to say it's white

You know why? Because the sky is full of nice white clouds. The fact that you really want it to be a sunny day doesn't matter, nor does the weather forecast you're waving around that says "0% chance of clouds today".

It doesn't make any sense to assume that a effect directly associated with an attack is not directly subject to the conditions of That attack. The conditions are one in the same.

I for one, am happy to accept Frank's ruling, and believe, without a doubt, that Sergovan's email was genuine, and that's good enough for me.

Even if it is genuine (and I don't seriously believe that it isn't, I just pointed out that anyone can make "I got an email" claims until the company publishes it officially) it isn't a ruling. Until FFG publishes it in their FAQs/errata it is just one person's opinion, an opinion that directly contradicts the very clear rules for checking arc. We can only hope that FFG doesn't publish it officially, and if/when another FAQ is released to clarify tactician it does so in a way that is consistent with the existing rules.

I am simply going to suggest that we take a break, ponder this information, and if it helps I will send an e-mail to Frank regarding your concerns over checking firing arc as it pertains to Outmaneuver and Tactician.

If you read that rules thread post you will see that we all did not see that ruling coming and found it very surprising.

Now, if I could only get Frank on speed dial...

It sounds like a lot of money on Phantom expansions. What else comes with Tactician?

That's the only ship that comes with Tactician I believe. On the plus side, you do get Recon Spec and Fire Crl System as well.

and if it helps I will send an e-mail to Frank regarding your concerns over checking firing arc as it pertains to Outmaneuver and Tactician.

If you do, make it a very detailed question fir this one, with examples of multiple related situations and cards. Because iperegrine is right, it SHOULD work the way he is describing, the fact that frank is saying it doesn't is a kinda big problem. What that ruling does is basically render cards like tactician that rely on the attackers firing arc totally useless for turrets because most of the time you will need to get 100% of the target's base inside their arc for the effect to trigger.

After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token.

I think this references the actual path of the attack being within the firing arc rather than the ship Itself. I feel that the card should have commas around the "against a ship" or remove it to make this more clear.

This leads me to believe that the actual shot must be made within firing arc at range 2.

I predict an errata, lol.

Subbed, as i would like to know the answer to this for sure.

This leads me to believe that the actual shot must be made within firing arc at range 2.

But the only concept of "within firing arc" that we have in the rules depends on the base of the ship being in the arc region. There's no concept of arc being determined by a line between points being in that region, or even used at all. So far the only mention of anything even remotely like this is a single email from a FFG employee.

Why stop at 6 Tacticians?

Omicron Group Pilot (21) + Tactician (2) + Tactician (2)

Omicron Group Pilot (21) + Tactician (2) + Tactician (2)

Omicron Group Pilot (21) + Tactician (2) + Tactician (2)

Omicron Group Pilot (21) + Tactician (2) + Tactician (2)

100 Total

and if it helps I will send an e-mail to Frank regarding your concerns over checking firing arc as it pertains to Outmaneuver and Tactician.

If you do, make it a very detailed question fir this one, with examples of multiple related situations and cards. Because iperegrine is right, it SHOULD work the way he is describing, the fact that frank is saying it doesn't is a kinda big problem. What that ruling does is basically render cards like tactician that rely on the attackers firing arc totally useless for turrets because most of the time you will need to get 100% of the target's base inside their arc for the effect to trigger.

Nope, just the closest point of the target ship needs to be in arc, and at ranged 2 at the time of the attack. That's all it it takes to trigger the effect.

Implicitly, tactician uses the conditions of the attack to determine if the tactician effect triggers. Now, the problems are that it's a) implicit, and b) turrets can fire outside of their firing arc, and can target ships that straddle that line.

While I understand that it's not exactly what the card says, it is evidently, exactly what the card means. Particularly if you have a game developer say as much.