Question, we have a person at the local gaming store, who believes they can measure echo's decloaking barrel role, and measure the dial movement before deciding whether to decloak or not. This seems pretty wrong. Is he right?
echo decloaking
He is wrong. You never measure anything unless you are committing to it
In casual game why not....
But really no...
Once he puts down the template he should be committed to that decloak action if he can legally do it. If not, he can choose to take a different decloak or not to decloak at all. Same as barrel rolls really. In our area we say out loud what kind of decloak or barrel roll direction we are trying before even setting the template down and THEN measure to see if it is a legal move.
Hope this helped!
The casual rules allow for greater ease of rules interpretation, but for this forum we like to keep it to the competitive play level.
In Competitive play, the player picks which side he wants to barrel role on (and in Echo's case forward or backwards on that side) and then the template is placed and the barrel role is attempted. If it overlaps a ship or obstacle the decloaking cannot occur on this particular side (and direction). Now, if it could be adjusted on that same side to not overlap but still work, just not in the exact location that the player wanted, then the rule of thumb applies "if it fits it sticks".
However, if the side and direction will not fit as a result of an overlap (even with trying to adjust the base), then the player gets to choose to not decloak or pick a different side (and direction) to decloak on. Once the decloak is complete, the dial can be revealed and the maneuver can be done. You cannot premeasure the maneuver, you have to do what you have picked on the dial as soon as you reveal it.
You cannot premeasure the decloak and the maneuver at the same time. That is never to be done. It is cheating. Attempt the decloak first, then reveal the dial and complete the maneuver picked.
It's really the same as using the templates in the planning phase - which is NOT allowed. The Phantom is supposed to be a tricky little ship to fly and this is reflected in it's decloak/move sequencing. As Sergovan stated, the only time you can pre-measure for a Phantom, is on the decloak, and that's only after declaring which way you're going.
but for this forum we like to keep it to the competitive play level.
No we actually don't do that. Since this is the rules section we shold answer according the standard rules. Only if some says they are paying by competitive rules should we answer according to the competitive rules. Which is a subset of the rules, even if many play by them they are still optional.
Per the Standard Rules the answer is yes you can measure for things like barrel rolls, bosts and the like before you commit to the action. So you would check for where the decloak will take you then decide if you want to or not. You cannot however check the maneuver until you reveal your dial, and you have to decloak before you do that.
If you are playing by competitive rules then yes you are committed to the decloak if you in measure and you can fit.
Also the standard rules (there is no such thing as casual rules, only standard and competitive) don't allow for a more casual interpretation of the rules, only a different set of requirements for being committed to a action.
Edited by VanorDMYeah, to me, it seems pretty wrong that you could measure all movements.
And you'd be right. If you could pre-measure the decloak AND the maneuver, then you wouldn't need the rules for overlapping, because you'd always be able to avoid the overlap. It doesn't matter whether you are playing by the standard rules or the competitive rules, because effectively you've got to commit to your decloak and hope your maneuver is going to fit where you want it to.
Sorry, how do we make the distinction between standard rules and competitive rules???
The way I fly Echo, I look at my dial, work out in my mind the optimal decloak based on my dial + how the opponent's ships have moved, work out in my mind the exact decloak position, and when I am happy with everything, declare my decloak direction, move to that position, then reveal my dial. Sometimes, I reveal my dial as I declare my decloak position, as I think it doesn't matter anyway if I reveal the dial now or 5 seconds later after I finished moving my model.
Am I doing it correctly or not?
Sorry, how do we make the distinction between standard rules and competitive rules???
The way I fly Echo, I look at my dial, work out in my mind the optimal decloak based on my dial + how the opponent's ships have moved, work out in my mind the exact decloak position, and when I am happy with everything, declare my decloak direction, move to that position, then reveal my dial. Sometimes, I reveal my dial as I declare my decloak position, as I think it doesn't matter anyway if I reveal the dial now or 5 seconds later after I finished moving my model.
Am I doing it correctly or not?
You're doing it exactly right.
The main thing the competitive rules do is lock you into a choice that can be completed. Using barrel roll as an example you couldn't roll right, see if you got out of arc or not, and then change your mind and focus instead because you couldn't clear it. If you can complete the roll, you're stuck with it.
Sorry, how do we make the distinction between standard rules and competitive rules???
If you're playing in a Premier FFG event, such as World, Regional, GenCon, ect... Or another tournament in which the TO declares that you will use the Competitive rules. Or if both players agree to it when just playing for fun.
Other then that, you are playing by the standard rules, and no one should ever simply assume you're playing by the competitive ones.
The difference is, when not playing by competitive rules you have the option of checking where you decloak, barrel roll, or boost will take you before committing to the action. So that means you can put the maneuver template down on the table look at where you'll end up and then do something else even if you'd fit.
Ah, what I meant is where would I find a print of the competitive rules? I presume standard rules is the rulebook included in the core game.