H'lo. Gotta new train of thought to share with you all. I've been reading a page on 1d4chan about the Space Marines, lots of stuff I'd like to talk about. For this thread, I got the idea from reading about the End Times (which apparently are right around the corner but will never get here!). Basically, there's a lot of Legions out there that have special beefs with one of their counterparts, and it just seems fitting that at the end of it all there should be some kind of final showdown between them all. So, just to organize it, I made a list of every pair of Legions that has a very specific axe to grind with each other. And just to keep things going, I added a few rivalries that just seemed to make sense to me.

Imperial Fists / Iron Warriors: if you don't know the history of these two guys, then you're just not paying attention.

Space Wolves / Thousand Sons: same here, though a bit more complicated. Think there'd be any kind of guilt trip in the end about what the Wolves did at the start, or is that all ten thousand years in the past?

Ultramarines / Word Bearers: now the blue boys took a bit of thinking, cause they've been in struggles with more than a few of their brother Legions. But I like this one the most; both are among the largest, most well organized of their legions (with the ultra's successors) and both seem to be the orthodox champions of their sides. (Imperium and Chaos Undivided).

Blood Angels / Black Legion: I thought this would be a group to match with the Ultra's, but when I remembered who it was that killed Sanguinius I realized that this would make for a more personal showdown. Dante vs. Abaddon, the sons of their primarchs, finishing what their fathers began all those millennia ago. Just imagine it.

From here on things get a bit more hazy, slightly less of a stated personal grudge and more of just who seems fit to face each other.

Iron Hands / Emperor's Children: okay, maybe not so hazy for these guys. The Hands are among the most hate-fueled chapters out there, consumed by the idea that their bodies failed them, and that they're primarch would still be with them if they'd been stronger. And just which primarch was it who chopped old Ferrus Mannus' head off? Beyond that, I think it'd be a pretty good match up, Slaanesh's drugged-up psychos against the cold, metallic, inhuman fury of the Machine Marines.

Salamanders / Night Lords: this was a toss-up, cause the NL are known for their stealth attacks, as are the Raven Guard. But while a battle of the shadows would be awesome to witness (if you sould even see it in the gloom) I thought this had a bit more chemistry. Besides stealth, the NL are also known for the utterly gruesome acts they perform on innocent targets; psychological warfare to break their enemies. While the Salamanders are renowned for their compassion and devotion to protecting the people of the Imperium. In my head, the battle between these two wouldn't be with each other, but over the people caught in the middle between them. (As a final note, the novel Vulkan Lives gives some pretty strong reasons for their primarchs to hate each other

Raven Guard - White Scars / World Eaters - Death Guard: Almost done, but for the life of me, I can't seem to find any kind of personal grudge for these four Legions to have with each other. Might be that I have to leave them out of it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Variety is a good thing, and not every Legion needs a sworn rival.

Dark Angels / Alpha Legion: Now these two are special, cause as far as I can tell their greatest conflicts are not with any outside force, but within themselves. Everyone here should be aware of who the Dark Angels feel the greatest hatred and shame for (they might even leave the imperial fists nervous). As for the Alpha Legion? Who the #%&$ even Knows anymore? I mean, come on! Who's alive, who's dead, whose on whose side and who only thinks they're on one side but maybe not while actually being on the other I don't even uuuuggh.

Well, that's my twenty cents. Don't know how much there is to discuss about this, but I wanted to share my ideas with you. So, what do you think? See you around.

Forgive my ignorance but are not the Blood Angels and the World Eaters supposed to be rivals while also the Ultramarines and Alpha Legion have axes to grind with each other?

Forgive my ignorance but are not the Blood Angels and the World Eaters supposed to be rivals while also the Ultramarines and Alpha Legion have axes to grind with each other?

The Ultramarines Do have an axe to grind with the Alphas, but they're not the only ones. Their was the War on Calth, and I believe a number of other actions. So the Ultras kind of have a number of rivals. I like the word bearers more, but that's just my opinion.

I don't remember any instances of the Blood Angels and World Eaters that was particularly personal (Angron was an ass to pretty much everyone). If you know of any please share.

Forgive my ignorance but are not the Blood Angels and the World Eaters supposed to be rivals while also the Ultramarines and Alpha Legion have axes to grind with each other?

The Ultramarines Do have an axe to grind with the Alphas, but they're not the only ones. Their was the War on Calth, and I believe a number of other actions. So the Ultras kind of have a number of rivals. I like the word bearers more, but that's just my opinion.

I don't remember any instances of the Blood Angels and World Eaters that was particularly personal (Angron was an ass to pretty much everyone). If you know of any please share.

Yeah ... but Guilleman allegedly killed Alpharius. Or so he said (there were no witnesses). And, presumably, he could distinguish between the real Primarch Alpharius and an Alpha Legionaire calling himself Alpharius.

So ... either Guilleman killed Alpharius (whoo, hatematch), Alpharius killed Guilleman and successfully impersonated him(somehow - I've no idea how he could have managed it, but some theorize he did), or Guilleman didn't kill Alpharius but said he did for unknown reasons.

Yeah ... but Guilleman allegedly killed Alpharius. Or so he said (there were no witnesses). And, presumably, he could distinguish between the real Primarch Alpharius and an Alpha Legionaire calling himself Alpharius.

So ... either Guilleman killed Alpharius (whoo, hatematch), Alpharius killed Guilleman and successfully impersonated him(somehow - I've no idea how he could have managed it, but some theorize he did), or Guilleman didn't kill Alpharius but said he did for unknown reasons.

Or Guilleman got ganked by the twins, and was replaced by Omegon, and Alpharius faked getting killed by his twin so people didn't care to look too closely at Guilleman 2.0 (thereby putting the Alpha Legion at the head of one of the strongest military forces in the galaxy). Or maybe Guilleman killed one of the twins, thinking he'd finally offed the Alpha Legion's primarch, but not really achieving anything. Hell, for all anyone knows, the bros could be chilling on Tera, waiting to stab and/or save (or both really) the Emperor when the time is right.

Yeah ... but Guilleman allegedly killed Alpharius. Or so he said (there were no witnesses). And, presumably, he could distinguish between the real Primarch Alpharius and an Alpha Legionaire calling himself Alpharius.

So ... either Guilleman killed Alpharius (whoo, hatematch), Alpharius killed Guilleman and successfully impersonated him(somehow - I've no idea how he could have managed it, but some theorize he did), or Guilleman didn't kill Alpharius but said he did for unknown reasons.

Or Guilleman got ganked by the twins, and was replaced by Omegon, and Alpharius faked getting killed by his twin so people didn't care to look too closely at Guilleman 2.0 (thereby putting the Alpha Legion at the head of one of the strongest military forces in the galaxy). Or maybe Guilleman killed one of the twins, thinking he'd finally offed the Alpha Legion's primarch, but not really achieving anything. Hell, for all anyone knows, the bros could be chilling on Tera, waiting to stab and/or save (or both really) the Emperor when the time is right.

I'm doubtful about the Impersonating Guilleman idea, as everything I know indicates that the Primarchs all had distinctive 'looks' different from one another, and I dubious about the idea that Alpharius/Omegon would have had the time to sufficiently alter their appearance to perfectly match Guilleman in the available time and the fact that the Ultrasmurfs should be able to tell their Primarch apart from another Primarch, plus all the stuff that Guilleman would know and have been ingrained in him and Alpharius/Omegon would not have. I'd grant that Alpharius/Omegon could probably successfully Impersonate Guilleman to outsiders, but not those who were close to Guilleman (like his Legion, or at least, the higher-ups/inner circles thereof).

I'd be much more interested in Guilleman having knowingly lied about killing Alpharius/Omegon, and why he might have done so. I think that leads to a much more interesting place.

*Guilliman

Yeah ... but Guilleman allegedly killed Alpharius. Or so he said (there were no witnesses). And, presumably, he could distinguish between the real Primarch Alpharius and an Alpha Legionaire calling himself Alpharius.

So ... either Guilleman killed Alpharius (whoo, hatematch), Alpharius killed Guilleman and successfully impersonated him(somehow - I've no idea how he could have managed it, but some theorize he did), or Guilleman didn't kill Alpharius but said he did for unknown reasons.

Or Guilleman got ganked by the twins, and was replaced by Omegon, and Alpharius faked getting killed by his twin so people didn't care to look too closely at Guilleman 2.0 (thereby putting the Alpha Legion at the head of one of the strongest military forces in the galaxy). Or maybe Guilleman killed one of the twins, thinking he'd finally offed the Alpha Legion's primarch, but not really achieving anything. Hell, for all anyone knows, the bros could be chilling on Tera, waiting to stab and/or save (or both really) the Emperor when the time is right.

I'd be much more interested in Guilleman having knowingly lied about killing Alpharius/Omegon, and why he might have done so. I think that leads to a much more interesting place.

Now That is an idea I would like to see. Guilliman has proven to be a thinker and planner, maybe even a little sneaky, so there's some merit to that idea. Not to mention the potential consequences would be out of this world.

The split between Alpharius and Omegon is another aspect to consider, with Alpha more easily embracing the Cabal's plans and views while Omega was more doubtful and hesitant, it's possible that one of the brothers helped Guilliman to kill the other, and either vanished afterwards or made some pact with the Son of Macragge.

Super interesting discussion, but all these potentials with what could've happened only further my belief that the Word Bearers are the correct rivals. Especially sine the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are rivals in Chaos as well.

Oh, definitely the Word Bearers are the Traitors that the Smurfs have the biggest grudge against . They did, after all, break several of the Ultramarine's coreworlds. Don't remember if the WB's got the original Ultramarine Homeworld or not. Think they might have.

As for whether or not the Alphas have a grudge against the Ultramarines, well, that really depends on just how twisty Alpharius/Omegon really are/were, and how the 'duel' with Guilliman really went down.