Lord Vader's famous force choke, is it Harm, Bind, Unleash, or not well represented in the rules?

100% Bind

Unleash is lightning

Harm is draining the life from someone, a power not well represented in the films

Lord Vader's famous force choke, is it Harm, Bind, Unleash, or not well represented in the rules?

Bind, with him using dark side points to inflict a whole bunch of wounds on the poor slob, and with plenty of range upgrades so that he can do long distance strangulations.

Unless you go by Robot Chicken's Star Wars, in which case he wasn't using a Force Power at all.

He could just be using the Move power with one strength upgrade to affect a size 1 target and the last control upgrade to allow him to do to the target anything he could do with his hands. (in this case lift them into the air and choke, with the potenial to throw them aside if he grew angry enough)

Now that is an interesting way of looking at it.

He could just be using the Move power with one strength upgrade to affect a size 1 target and the last control upgrade to allow him to do to the target anything he could do with his hands. (in this case lift them into the air and choke, with the potenial to throw them aside if he grew angry enough)

Perfectly said.

This is why I'd rather have the Bind power be a extension of the Move power, not a separate power by itself. This leaves 2 possibilities. The simplest one is making move (and maybe some of its upgrades) a requirement to purchase Bind. The other one, which is would prefer, is to extend the Move power tree by some more levels, and making the bind effect a control upgrade of Move. This way, many of Move range and strength upgrades would work on Bind, so the bind strength, durations and other upgrades will require some rework.

This has been brought up a bit over the last 2 years. I can see it going either way, but since the Bind power occupies a very different game space, and is a very different application of telekinetic force, I like the distinction the way it is.

Also, in almost every iteration of the SW RPG (at least as far back as my WEG 2nd ed), I'm pretty sure that grip and move have been separate. Though in WEG, it was fuzzier. Not that FFG can't be different, but they have chosen to represent grip in a similar way, distinguishing it from move.

The main problem with using move, is that there is not much of a grapple game mechanic, so using move to replicate that action is problematic. Also, what skills would you use, how is it resisted, and what are the actual game effects for maintaining the power are all issues that need to be addressed.

Now, If I had a player that had invested that much xp in Move, and wanted to expand into bind, I would give them an xp discount on the bind basic power if they already had that move control upgrade, as in my mind they would synergize well, and would still use the existing rules with basically no modification.

The game devs have said in the past that the Move power isn't supposed to do that; they don't think it is thematically appropriate. I agree, and think the Bind power is totally relevant and very cool. Completely different from Move, even though both are telekinetic powers.

How would you simulate Count Dooku's choke and throw of Obi Wan in game? Would it be Bind on one turn then Move on the next or is he Binding and Moving at the same time since Obi is lifted? We see something similar with Ventress in TCW, she chokes Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time and as they are choking they are lifted off the ground.

The game devs have said in the past that the Move power isn't supposed to do that; they don't think it is thematically appropriate. I agree, and think the Bind power is totally relevant and very cool. Completely different from Move, even though both are telekinetic powers.

The problem is that they also said the Move power is supposed to affect people too, and not only objects (see the "Force Powers and Narrative" sidebar, both on the EotE and AoR corebooks). Also, the "Moving and Duration" sidebar says it is possible to commit 1 FD to keep an affected target for longer periods, at the expense of strain.

And with this 2 little advises on the Move Power, they made it possible to "bind" someone (which, by RAW, could even be maintained for several rounds, actually).

This has been brought up a bit over the last 2 years. I can see it going either way, but since the Bind power occupies a very different game space, and is a very different application of telekinetic force, I like the distinction the way it is.

Also, in almost every iteration of the SW RPG (at least as far back as my WEG 2nd ed), I'm pretty sure that grip and move have been separate. Though in WEG, it was fuzzier. Not that FFG can't be different, but they have chosen to represent grip in a similar way, distinguishing it from move.

The main problem with using move, is that there is not much of a grapple game mechanic, so using move to replicate that action is problematic. Also, what skills would you use, how is it resisted, and what are the actual game effects for maintaining the power are all issues that need to be addressed.

Now, If I had a player that had invested that much xp in Move, and wanted to expand into bind, I would give them an xp discount on the bind basic power if they already had that move control upgrade, as in my mind they would synergize well, and would still use the existing rules with basically no modification.

I agree with you on these issues, and that's why I think Bind and Move can't be completely apart.

Let's do some logic exercises:

1) How can some FU learn how to telekinetically hamper someone, when he can't move a small object at all? By the RAW, a FU can learn Bind without learning Move, which is weird.

2) Why does a FU who trained and learned how to use telekinesis at long range can only hamper someone at short range? By the RAW, the Range upgrades of Move don't affect Bind at all, which is weird.

3) Why does a FU who refined its telekinetic abilities to move larges objects for a longer period of time (committing 1 FD) can't use this same ability at someone? Actually, the way the "Moving and Duration" sidebar is written allows exactly this sort of thing.

The main problem I see is that, by RAW, Move should only affect objects, not people .

But the game devs have said already that it is supposed to, mimicking all those Force pushes and slams we see on the movies and the EU. That's what breaks the Bind power as it currently is. So, my opinion is that the Bind effect should become a “Control: Bind” upgrade located right below the “Control: Fine Manipulation” upgrade, and all the Bind Power's Duration, Control and Mastery upgrades should become Move's upgrades tied to the “Control: Bind” upgrade. Also, the Bind Power`s Strength upgrades should become Move’s Control upgrades, to avoid confusion.

About resisting the Move power, the game devs have already suggested it should be resisted with Resilience or Discipline.

But Grapple rules are still a thing on their checklist, I guess.

Stuff.

SOLD!

I'm all in on this.

He could just be using the Move power with one strength upgrade to affect a size 1 target and the last control upgrade to allow him to do to the target anything he could do with his hands. (in this case lift them into the air and choke, with the potenial to throw them aside if he grew angry enough)

Perfectly said.

This is why I'd rather have the Bind power be a extension of the Move power, not a separate power by itself.

I like how most of the powers are laid out, but I think Move is far too fuzzy, and other than basic telekinesis it feels far too disconnected from the movie and TCW experiences. At best, all it handles well is the E5 scenes with Vader vs Luke, but little else. As some already know I definitely don't like it for "Push" applications.

One way they could resolve some of this is to allow for combined power applications, e.g.: if you roll enough Force points you could apply basic power and upgrades from multiple powers, perhaps with an additional FP requirement for the combination. Then you could Bind and Move together.

Bind requires Force Rating 2 or higher. And it could be argued that it's a different technique to bind someone than it is to move someone.

I use different muscles to push against a door (holding it closed) than I would to pull the door open. Both are physical acts of strength, but both require different techniques.

So if PCs chose to purchase Bind and forego Move, they could just be very unpracticed in the art of moving things with their mind, but very well-practiced in the art of stopping things with their mind.

Edit: and anyway, it's a difference of 10 XP, so isn't going to break the bank if a GM decided to require a PC to know the Move basic power before buying Bind. But really, I think it's okay as is. The Force Rating requirement is a good prereq.

How would you simulate Count Dooku's choke and throw of Obi Wan in game? Would it be Bind on one turn then Move on the next or is he Binding and Moving at the same time since Obi is lifted? We see something similar with Ventress in TCW, she chokes Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time and as they are choking they are lifted off the ground.

Bind has a control upgrade that allows you to move a target one range band closer or farther away. Combine that with the dark side critical effect for the Mastery upgrade, and it's easily described as being choked, then flung into something.

The "lifted slightly off the ground" part can be included for effect in the narrative. There's no real mechanical benefit or drawback for being lifted a short height, such that one could potentially "land on his feet" when "dropped."

Bind requires Force Rating 2 or higher. And it could be argued that it's a different technique to bind someone than it is to move someone.

I use different muscles to push against a door (holding it closed) than I would to pull the door open. Both are physical acts of strength, but both require different techniques.

So if PCs chose to purchase Bind and forego Move, they could just be very unpracticed in the art of moving things with their mind, but very well-practiced in the art of stopping things with their mind.

Edit: and anyway, it's a difference of 10 XP, so isn't going to break the bank if a GM decided to require a PC to know the Move basic power before buying Bind. But really, I think it's okay as is. The Force Rating requirement is a good prereq.

I partially agree with the push/open door argument. And I do like the Force power's layout as it is also, so another option would be to include Move as prerequisite to Bind, and change Bind basic effect to something like this (changes are underlined ):

I asked myself the same question awhile back.

I decided it was either Bind, or (a Control upgraded) Move. Rereading both several times, I felt like Bind was used to hold a target's entire body, and the damage was from squeezing/crushing the entire body. Move, on the other hand, has that Control upgrade that allows you to manipulate things as if using your hand. To me, that was Vader using Move to crush a neck just as if it were his fingers wrapped around the target's throat (but using the Strength upgrades instead of Brawn).

As Move, it could also be used to lift someone, throw them against the wall, bring them toward you, or choke several guys at once (which happens a couple times in TCW). Bind also has these abilities.

To me, it came down to the basic use of Bind, which is to restrain a target. If someone is restrained, they are not flailing about or grabbing at the phantom fingers around their neck. They are restrained. (Yes, with the use of Darkside pips, you can inflict squeezing/crushing damage, but the power affects the entire target, not just his neck.) This idea versus the idea that Move can be learned to a degree that you can manipulate the target as if with your hands, settles it in my mind that the infamous "Force choke" is best served as a refined use of Move.

Now, is that the intention? I have no idea. I think people are "objects" too. Should Move and/or Bind be rewritten some to expressly make it more clear? Perhaps.

However, it did put another question in my mind. How do you physically choke someone (to death) in the rules? Vader physically choked that Tantive IV rebel officer in A New Hope.