As the topic says I think the power has to many range upgrades I wonder if they meant to have a strength upgrade.

It's a little bit weird, but I don't think it's an error. There might be a more elegant way to handle it though.

Just looking at Unleash the base range is short, so having 4 range upgrades seems strange because that brings it one range band past Extreme. However, if you look at Protect, the base range is engaged, so 4 range upgrades allows it to reach Extreme.

Somewhat off-topic, but I kind of think almost all the powers have too many range upgrades. Have we ever seen anyone use force lightning at extreme range? That's like a sniper using force lightning. It seems over-the-top to me. In the films and in the Clone Wars we've never seen it above short or maaaybe medium range.

I agree on all counts.

Personally, I'd rather see the tree drop all but one of its Range Upgrades, and include text that it cannot be activated multiple times. That way, Force Lightning could be used out to Medium range, and Protect can shelter someone within Short range. As it is, I don't believe I've ever read about someone using either power at any kind of distance.

I agree on all counts.

Personally, I'd rather see the tree drop all but one of its Range Upgrades, and include text that it cannot be activated multiple times. That way, Force Lightning could be used out to Medium range, and Protect can shelter someone within Short range. As it is, I don't believe I've ever read about someone using either power at any kind of distance.

Agree. This would be a good solution. I do like that you can add Ensnare to it, though. I especially like that it has a FR 3+ requirement which makes it something for the really experienced Jedi.

Holy cow, totally agreeing. It's expensive but exceptionally potent.

what would you replace those ranges with?

Well, with the max range shortened, you could possibly add another rank of magnitude or two.

Maybe 2 ranks of Magnitude, 1 rank of Strength?

With Unleash leveled up all the way that would allow you to hit a max of 5 targets within medium range, instead of 3 targets within extreme range. And the Strength would allow you to add 1 extra success or advantage.

Adding an extra Strength might be too much though... Unleash is already in a position to deal some really nasty critical injuries even without an extra advantage added.

(Personally I think they should shorten the maximum buy-able range on Heal/Harm and Bind also.)

Well, with Bind we've got an in-film example of someone using it at a very long range, namely Vader in ESB when Admiral Ozzel had failed him for the last time, so that having a bunch of Range Upgrades to get to Extreme Range makes sense.

On Heal/Harm, they could probably substitute the last Range Upgrade for a Strength Upgrade, thus keeping those Upgrades spread out and buried through the tree as they've already done.

About Protect/Unleash, I could see replacing two of the Range Upgrades with two additional Magnitude Upgrades.

Well, with Bind we've got an in-film example of someone using it at a very long range, namely Vader in ESB when Admiral Ozzel had failed him for the last time, so that having a bunch of Range Upgrades to get to Extreme Range makes sense.

On Heal/Harm, they could probably substitute the last Range Upgrade for a Strength Upgrade, thus keeping those Upgrades spread out and buried through the tree as they've already done.

About Protect/Unleash, I could see replacing two of the Range Upgrades with two additional Magnitude Upgrades.

It's 'long range', but it's not THAT long. Vader and Ozzel were both on the super star destroyer Executor. They were on the same ship. And while it's a massive ship I bet Vader's chambers weren't super far from the command bridge where Ozzel was. Could you imagine in a time of crisis:

"Lord Vader, there's been an emergency, please report to the bridge!!"

Vader steps out of his chambers, walks down the hall to the elevator. Vader taps his foot inside the elevator while overly pleasant elevator music plays for 10 minutes as he ascends to the bridge.

(Off topic, but listen to this and imagine that image in your head:

Some sources believe you can use it (Bind/Force Choke) from really far away but only if you have a very good visual of the target and you fully concentrate on it.

Edit: Palpatine chokes Dooku from another planet in an episode of the Clone Wars while they communicate via holoprojection. (Season 6, Episode 10)

I'd still like to see Protect gain the ability to channel absorbed energy into some usage of the Force, a la Corran Horn. Could replace one or two Range Upgrades with a new Control, although I don't know what Unleash's half of that would be.

I'd still like to see Protect gain the ability to channel absorbed energy into some usage of the Force, a la Corran Horn. Could replace one or two Range Upgrades with a new Control, although I don't know what Unleash's half of that would be.

I think the Light side Mastery is supposed to be in that vain.

I'd still like to see Protect gain the ability to channel absorbed energy into some usage of the Force, a la Corran Horn. Could replace one or two Range Upgrades with a new Control, although I don't know what Unleash's half of that would be.

I think the Light side Mastery is supposed to be in that vain.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I must say, I'm really torn on what to replace some of the range upgrades with. Adding more Magnitude or Strength might be overdoing it, but I really dislike the concept of Extreme range band force lightning and protect.

From a balance perspective, too much magnitude and you could end up protecting almost a whole party of characters, and too much strength and you could end up negating truly disgusting amounts of damage.

Going back to the old D6 days, many of the powers were limited with range. I'm wondering if some of these powers need "range" as a upgrade at all?

I'd still like to see Protect gain the ability to channel absorbed energy into some usage of the Force, a la Corran Horn. Could replace one or two Range Upgrades with a new Control, although I don't know what Unleash's half of that would be.

I think the Light side Mastery is supposed to be in that vain.

The Mastery upgrade represents something like Anakin and Obi-Wan getting knocked away from each other on Mustafar, or channeling energy into an attack, but Corran channels energy into illusions (Misdirect), essentially gaining several upgrades (Range, Strength, and Magnitude), which is not represented here. Halcyon channels into Move, so the damage is there, and I guess you could describe the aftereffect as narrative license, although that aftereffect isn't just window dressing in the story, so adding the movement portion is noteworthy.

Some sources believe you can use it (Bind/Force Choke) from really far away but only if you have a very good visual of the target and you fully concentrate on it.

Edit: Palpatine chokes Dooku from another planet in an episode of the Clone Wars while they communicate via holoprojection. (Season 6, Episode 10)

Back in the D6 days our group's rule was that such powers worked at their "apparent distance". That is, you're seeing a real-time holoprojection of a guy someplace in the universe, and in your mind they're right there - just a few feet in front of you. So even though their actual distance was immense, the apparent distance was "short range" or whatever, and the power could be used.

Our justification for this interpretation being Yoda's, "Only different in your mind" speech.

Some sources believe you can use it (Bind/Force Choke) from really far away but only if you have a very good visual of the target and you fully concentrate on it.

Edit: Palpatine chokes Dooku from another planet in an episode of the Clone Wars while they communicate via holoprojection. (Season 6, Episode 10)

Back in the D6 days our group's rule was that such powers worked at their "apparent distance". That is, you're seeing a real-time holoprojection of a guy someplace in the universe, and in your mind they're right there - just a few feet in front of you. So even though their actual distance was immense, the apparent distance was "short range" or whatever, and the power could be used.

Our justification for this interpretation being Yoda's, "Only different in your mind" speech.

I like that a lot. But can you imagine what would happen when players figured out how it worked?

"So, we have the spy camera installed in the Moff's office? Goooooood...."

Some sources believe you can use it (Bind/Force Choke) from really far away but only if you have a very good visual of the target and you fully concentrate on it.

Edit: Palpatine chokes Dooku from another planet in an episode of the Clone Wars while they communicate via holoprojection. (Season 6, Episode 10)

Back in the D6 days our group's rule was that such powers worked at their "apparent distance". That is, you're seeing a real-time holoprojection of a guy someplace in the universe, and in your mind they're right there - just a few feet in front of you. So even though their actual distance was immense, the apparent distance was "short range" or whatever, and the power could be used.

Our justification for this interpretation being Yoda's, "Only different in your mind" speech.

I like that a lot. But can you imagine what would happen when players figured out how it worked?

"So, we have the spy camera installed in the Moff's office? Goooooood...."

It was never a problem for us in the D6 days.

The key is that the GM builds adventures, and doesn't allow the PCs to run roughshod over the campaign. If the players want to install a spy camera in the Moff's office, that's quite a mission! If they succeed then maybe they'll be able to off the Moff and leave his security with a bit of a mystery... and you can bet they'll find the camera. That has a way of leading back to the characters, it always does...

Some sources believe you can use it (Bind/Force Choke) from really far away but only if you have a very good visual of the target and you fully concentrate on it.

Edit: Palpatine chokes Dooku from another planet in an episode of the Clone Wars while they communicate via holoprojection. (Season 6, Episode 10)

Back in the D6 days our group's rule was that such powers worked at their "apparent distance". That is, you're seeing a real-time holoprojection of a guy someplace in the universe, and in your mind they're right there - just a few feet in front of you. So even though their actual distance was immense, the apparent distance was "short range" or whatever, and the power could be used.

Our justification for this interpretation being Yoda's, "Only different in your mind" speech.

I like that a lot. But can you imagine what would happen when players figured out how it worked?

"So, we have the spy camera installed in the Moff's office? Goooooood...."

It was never a problem for us in the D6 days.

The key is that the GM builds adventures, and doesn't allow the PCs to run roughshod over the campaign. If the players want to install a spy camera in the Moff's office, that's quite a mission! If they succeed then maybe they'll be able to off the Moff and leave his security with a bit of a mystery... and you can bet they'll find the camera. That has a way of leading back to the characters, it always does...

Fair enough. I just know what some players are like and I'm picturing some Heath Robinson contraption with lots of mirrors on sticks with a PC force-wielder sitting in the middle protected by armour and choking people's reflections. PCs may or may not fall the Dark Side, but players always do.

But I'm mostly trying to be funny here. I'm also stealing the phrase "Off the Moff" as the title (and goal) of one of my adventures!

Some sources believe you can use it (Bind/Force Choke) from really far away but only if you have a very good visual of the target and you fully concentrate on it.

Edit: Palpatine chokes Dooku from another planet in an episode of the Clone Wars while they communicate via holoprojection. (Season 6, Episode 10)

Back in the D6 days our group's rule was that such powers worked at their "apparent distance". That is, you're seeing a real-time holoprojection of a guy someplace in the universe, and in your mind they're right there - just a few feet in front of you. So even though their actual distance was immense, the apparent distance was "short range" or whatever, and the power could be used.

Our justification for this interpretation being Yoda's, "Only different in your mind" speech.

I like that a lot. But can you imagine what would happen when players figured out how it worked?

"So, we have the spy camera installed in the Moff's office? Goooooood...."

That's actually exactly how it gets used in one episode of the Clone Wars. (except a security camera, instead of a spy camera)

Bind: Short range

Bind Range upgrade: Spend 2 points to allow you use this power on a target you have a clear, real time view of- the effective range through the link drops to Engaged. Note that most comm lines are secured and requite a different means to access.

Bind range upgrade: spend 1 point to increase range by 1.

I had one of my players ask if this would mean that you could use force lightning in starship combat.

Yes there are too many range upgrades. Force lightning/cold/whatever should not be a sniper rifle.

The worst offender is probably that you can activate the range upgrade several times. And even without that clause, the tree should have no more than three range upgrades.

[Protect/Unleash Basic: 20XP]
I I I
[R15]---[M10]---[s10]---[C10]
I I I
[M20]---[s20]---[R10]---[C15]
I I I
[C25] [s20] [Mast25]--[D15]

How about this?

So, did anybody have a chance to try out my modified tree? I'm afraid I killed the discussion with it...