I completely and unequivocally disagree with Revanchist and Donovan in their interpretation that Easy is an acceptable difficulty.

1) At the point at which a character has Mastery in Battle Meditation, they have at least Force Rating 2 (by requirement) and 100 XP spent in Battle Meditation (assuming only the line to get to Mastery + Control). They likely have Force Rating 3+ and a whole mess of other powers and such. This character has several hundred XP and is extremely powerful.

2) The character's allies (or troops, in the case of e.g. Palpatine) are not going to be slouches either. Even Minion Stormtroopers have Willpower 3 (less 1 because DS use of Battle Meditation - more on that in a moment).

3) The power really ought to be more effective than the radio. "Tie Squadron 1, you are ordered to break off your attack on that freighter and attack the star cruiser." And that's what they'd do, because they're military and they follow orders. And if they were having second thoughts, they'd essentially be Coerced (a skill that probably works well over the radio in these circumstances).

4) -1 Willpower makes no sense . Like so much of this power, it is completely unreasonable and does not match what we see in the movies or the Extended Universe . If the penalty were "-1 Willpower to resist your Social Skills and Force Power effects", I could see that. But Stormtroopers are not less capable when under the effect of Battle Meditation - they are more capable. That's rather the whole point. They are not less scary (loss to Coercion), more likely to disobey or flee from battle (loss to Discipline), or more likely to fall asleep at their post and more sluggish in combat (loss to Vigilance).

It makes no sense . Can we agree that it is broken and needs to be fixed ? I believe the author wrote the power from the point of view of a light side character, and while that's fine for what it is, it completely disregards how the power is shown in many sources and the fact that it was used quite effectively by Dark Siders such as Palpatine.

1. So?

2. They're not necessarily going to be high-stat characters. Also, so what if they were? Is it unreasonable to assume a high-will character will have a harder time being mind controlled? Mind control is a HUGE deal from a balance stand-point.

3. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, that issuing regular orders works better than mind-controlling? Well obviously. (Although not in all situations) Dark siders don't have to do the whole mind control thing, they can issue orders as normally and still gain the benefits of the core power.

4. I totally agree with the "-1 Willpower to resist your Social Skills and Force Power effects" idea, though I don't think it's fatally flawed as it is. Although, even that doesn't fix your issue with them being more easily Coerced. Honestly, as a GM, I wouldn't allow a mind-controlled NPC to be coerced out of their orders anyway. That's the point, they're mind-controlled, their orders take priority over threat to their livelihood.

1. This should be a very powerful ability, since it comes at great cost and is only available after considerable time and effort. It will not easily be "overpowered" as so many seem to think, because the opposition should be equally powerful. If you've invested enough in it early on to make it seem "overpowered", then you're playing a one-trick-pony and the GM should be able to remind you of that very quickly.

2. What is this Mind Control that you keep speaking of? I have read the power many times, and if you mean, "If you fail this easy discipline check you're mind-controlled," then I'm saying that's a hilarious interpretation. It practically ensures that the so-called "mind control" will always fail . Also, it only works on allies .

3. The point I am making is that in its current form this power is less capable than giving your orders via radio. It is laughable, pathetic, and not worth the points .

In all seriousness, a lot of people in this thread seem to think this is a terribly powerful ability, easily abused and unabalancing. I don't get it. The power only works on allies. You won't be mind controlling them to run off a cliff, or you'll run out of allies.

I have read and reread this power in it's entirety, and feel that I have a good grasp on what it can and cannot do. I feel that a lot of people are making arguments based on what they believe it is intended to do, and that'd be fine, except the rules as written do not line up with those beliefs.

The reason this power is powerful is because it can grant a large number of Advantages to a group of people (and for a long time if you can activate the Duration upgrade).

It is not powerful because you can tell people what to do, or force them to do it. That is a completely negligible and unlikely side effect.

What? You literally can force other characters to do what you command them to do. That's what the dark side mastery does. In what universe is forcing another player's character to do what you want them to do not a powerful ability.

Imagine a party comes across an NPC that has a talisman of the iron fist that's been an heirloom to their family.

Player A: Ok, I'm going to try and roll Negotiation to convince the NPC to sell us his talisman.

Player B: No, that's stupid, let's just kill him.

Player A: What? No way! You might have a 16 Morality but I'm still a paragon of light!

Player B: Well, I have this Battle Meditation power, I'm going to roll that. *rolls dark side* Ok, now with an Easy Leadership check... succeeded! Ok, now Player A, kill the NPC.

Player A: Um, no, I'm not going to do it.

GM: Player B has the Mastery power, you need to make an Easy Discipline check to resist.

Player A: Ok, well that's not so bad...

Player B: Don't forget, your Willpower is considered to be one lower!

Player A: Really regretting not raising my Willpower now.... *rolls* Oh you have to be kidding me, six Advantage! Is there anything I can spend this on?

GM: Uprgade your attack against the NPC?

Player B: Kill him. Kill him now.

The problem is that darksiders get gypped. Reduced willpower has too many more effects than just resisting the mind control, and the Darkside mastery power is much less useful than the light side counterpart.

Sam mentioned in the Order 66 podcast that they intended the game to be played lightside- it stands to reason that the darkside powers are less tested, and this is a perfect example of a darkside power that needs a buff.

The problem is that darksiders get gypped. Reduced willpower has too many more effects than just resisting the mind control, and the Darkside mastery power is much less useful than the light side counterpart.

Sam mentioned in the Order 66 podcast that they intended the game to be played lightside- it stands to reason that the darkside powers are less tested, and this is a perfect example of a darkside power that needs a buff.

I feel like they could probably find a better balance for the dark side. The -1 willpower being made to be specifically for the mind control and not other effects is a pretty good start.

The mind control power is pretty potent if it actually takes effect though.

I suggest the following:

Control: The user may make an Easy (π) Leadership check combined with the
Battle Meditation power check. If the user is able to activate the power
and succeeds on the check, he may send simple orders as part of the power. If you spent (Dark), you may use Coersion for this check instead, and the target cannot disobey without passing a Simple Disipline check. If you do, take 1 conflict per target.

Mastery: If the user did not use (Dark) to generate (force), choose one skill. While affected
by the power, each affected character counts as having the same number
of ranks in the chosen skill as the affected character with the most ranks
in the skill. If the user did not use (Light) to generate (force), each affected character may be the target of another force power- Ignore the other power's normal range and target restrictions.

This moves the "OMG MIND CONTROL" to a level where it's weakness is appropriate, and replaces it with an effect that's harder to pull off (needing all darkside instead of just 1 darkside), but is comparable to lightside's skill sharing. (It also replicates vader's comm screen force chokes- there's no reason it has to be a GOOD power you channel. )

I find the power to be good as is. It's meant to emulate what is mentioned in KoTOR as a method of coordinating forces and turning the tides of large-scale battles, and that's what it does. It's definitely a bit of an XP sink if you only use it for your party, but even then, it's still pretty powerful.

The advantages, are definitely nice, but they are not the main focus of this power. They're a nice little bonus, but they're just a small piece of what builds this power to being powerful.

The main focus is the Mastery upgrade of it for not using any dark side points. This upgrade essentially lets you copy over a fellow PC's 5 ranks in Gunnery to (assuming all Magnitude upgrades, and a Presence of 3) 14 other characters, or in a smaller scope: copy Discipline to the rest of the party so everyone is awesome at force powers, or Resilience so everyone can fight off poison, or even Leadership to try and start a simultaneous uprising in a city from numerous points. So to me, that's pretty **** powerful, regardless of if the power is just being used to help massive fights or just help the group of PCs get by something difficult.

The dark side Mastery is still pretty decent. The idea of Battle Meditation is that you're meant to use it to coordinate allies. You want to be a jerk to enemies and have them kill themselves? You go invest into Influence - that isn't the focus of something that is meant to connect groups of people together. The idea of using Battle Meditation if you're a dark sider, is that as is, you're tapping into the dark side - a clear and focused mind probably isn't your strong suit. As such, you're probably more likely to send direct orders and try and force your allies to do something stupid - like miniature suicide missions. That doesn't mean they won't do it if they think it's a good idea, heck, even light siders can send the same orders, but as a dark sider, you can basically force them to do it. The cost of this is that as a dark sider, you can't focus well enough to get the skill rank copy, and all allies affected get their willpower knocked down by 1. But, of course, that decreased willpower can actually be helpful when forcing orders they'd not otherwise do. But since you're able to slap the power on anybody that's an ally, much as it was mentioned before, by Donovan I believe, the easy Difficulty is to ensure PCs don't get forced into doing something stupid by a PC who thinks they know what's best.

Light-siders as is, have a pretty great power at their hands. Dark-siders, eh. It ain't exactly as powerful, and it is a bit more limited in uses, but I'd say that since Dark Siders get Force Choke (crit'ing with Bind), Force Lightning (Unleash), and an ultra fancy player reviver (mastery of Harm), that it's fine if the Light Siders get their own neat little power that's better than the dark side version of itself.

I really wish I had the version of the power that you're reading. I can't imagine we're reading the same thing.

The power in the book is about as far from the depiction in KoTOR as you can get. It:

1) Works at Personal scale, starting at Engaged range

2) Works on a small number of targets

3) Undermines the viability of affected targets if Dark Pips are used

4) Cannot be used effectively by a Dark Side Force user if Mastery is employed.

The mechanics of Advantages may or may not be able to represent the particular benefits of the power as seen.

Sure, the power is nice if you're a Light Side character, but let's face it: we're looking at a several hundred point character who is very focused on this power. That sounds like an NPC to me, and the kind of NPC that would want a power like this... may not be friendly.

So we have a power that's great for ... nobody. Excellent. Well done.

Your paragraph interpreting Dark Side Mastery is not how it works. You cannot send orders to have people go on suicide missions because they will and must refuse those orders. Comming them and saying, "This is your commander, I have a mission for you..." is more effective at that than Battle Meditation.

I do not believe you are interpreting the power as written, I believe you are interpreting the power as it is in your mind.

What? You literally can force other characters to do what you command them to do. That's what the dark side mastery does. In what universe is forcing another player's character to do what you want them to do not a powerful ability.

Imagine a party comes across an NPC that has a talisman of the iron fist that's been an heirloom to their family.

Player A: Ok, I'm going to try and roll Negotiation to convince the NPC to sell us his talisman.

Player B: No, that's stupid, let's just kill him.

Player A: What? No way! You might have a 16 Morality but I'm still a paragon of light!

Player B: Well, I have this Battle Meditation power, I'm going to roll that. *rolls dark side* Ok, now with an Easy Leadership check... succeeded! Ok, now Player A, kill the NPC.

Player A: Um, no, I'm not going to do it.

GM: Player B has the Mastery power, you need to make an Easy Discipline check to resist.

Player A: Ok, well that's not so bad...

Player B: Don't forget, your Willpower is considered to be one lower!

Player A: Really regretting not raising my Willpower now.... *rolls* Oh you have to be kidding me, six Advantage! Is there anything I can spend this on?

GM: Uprgade your attack against the NPC?

Player B: Kill him. Kill him now.

Excepting the part where, you can't.

They will disobey the order very nearly all the time. The story you wrote up is unlikely in the extreme, and even though it might succeed occasionally, it would certainly be far from reliable.

Also, if you spent all your points so you can do that, I'd expect the other members of the party to explain to you how not to treat your friends. And then you can roll up a new character.

"The user may make an Easy Leadership check combined with the Battle Meditation power check . If the user is able to activate the power and succeeds on the check, he may send simple orders as part of the power[....] each affected character must make an Easy Discipline check to resist obeying orders." Which part of this doesn't sound like mind control to you? Yeah, it has a pretty low success rate, and that's because holy cow it is potent if it actually comes into play.

I'm not even sure what your issue with the power is anymore, you say its effectiveness comes from the Advantage gained and that mind control is a side-effect, I agree with this. But what's your issue, what is your problem with it? It does what its main purpose is well and what its side-effects are as well as balance allows.

How about the part where the target is required to make an Easy Discipline check to resist ? It's not just that it's a check to resist, but that 1) it's required, and 2) it's easy.

For a Dark Side Force User, the Mastery Power is a resounding negative. They will be more successful if they do not purchase the power. If they had the power before going Darkside, then they've just wasted a whole lot of points. This does not make sense.

The power should be viable no matter what side of the line you fall on.

(Edited out. Move along.)

Scalding: A couple points.

1. I'm a little afraqid you might be comparing FaD characters to the most powerful and Iconic characters of all time. Using Bastilla SHan or Palpatine as examples of what can be done is ... not a path to satisfaction in this game.

2. I think you need to read the mastery upgrade within the context of the control upgrade. I know others have said this, but it's important, and I want to reiterate this. From the control upgrade "This order is not mandatory..." and the mastery upgrade adds, "to resist obeying any orders given by the user as part of this power." Ignoring some of the confusing language in the order, the mastery upgrade is simply giving the user's orders more force, making them compelling. The sytax of the power doesn't actually say they must resist it, but to resist it they must succeed.

3. Easy check... this is a low hurdle. There is the reduced will power aspect. And against most minions, this means that the power will succeed. take a group of street toughs. They are will 1, and no discipline, so they can never resist your orders. You could dominate an entire regiment of street toughs and make them do your bidding.

Or take a grizzled trader. Let's say you really want that blaster rifle, and you want to have them killed. That trader has no hope of resisting.

Even a character with 2 will and one discipline, is unlikely to resist this power. This character would be reduced to a proficiency die, and this easy check will only succeed about 40% of the time. it's not until you get to about 2 profficiency dice v one difficulty that the target can resist about 66% of the time. Those are pretty good odds to dominate a weak target.

EDIT: 5 rpoficiency dice (basically the highest roll you could have) still will fail the check one out of 20 times. that's amazing. because I would not have expected that. easy is a low bar, but that's amazing.

I think it's important to say, no FaD character will ever be on par with Palps, Yoda, Bane, or otehr Iconic Star Wars personalities.

I think it's important to say, no FaD character will ever be on par with Palps, Yoda, Bane, or otehr Iconic Star Wars personalities.

Scalding: A couple points.

1. I'm a little afraqid you might be comparing FaD characters to the most powerful and Iconic characters of all time. Using Bastilla SHan or Palpatine as examples of what can be done is ... not a path to satisfaction in this game.

2. I think you need to read the mastery upgrade within the context of the control upgrade. I know others have said this, but it's important, and I want to reiterate this. From the control upgrade "This order is not mandatory..." and the mastery upgrade adds, "to resist obeying any orders given by the user as part of this power." Ignoring some of the confusing language in the order, the mastery upgrade is simply giving the user's orders more force, making them compelling. The sytax of the power doesn't actually say they must resist it, but to resist it they must succeed.

3. Easy check... this is a low hurdle. There is the reduced will power aspect. And against most minions, this means that the power will succeed. take a group of street toughs. They are will 1, and no discipline, so they can never resist your orders. You could dominate an entire regiment of street toughs and make them do your bidding.

Or take a grizzled trader. Let's say you really want that blaster rifle, and you want to have them killed. That trader has no hope of resisting.

Even a character with 2 will and one discipline, is unlikely to resist this power. This character would be reduced to a proficiency die, and this easy check will only succeed about 40% of the time. it's not until you get to about 2 profficiency dice v one difficulty that the target can resist about 66% of the time. Those are pretty good odds to dominate a weak target.

EDIT: 5 rpoficiency dice (basically the highest roll you could have) still will fail the check one out of 20 times. that's amazing. because I would not have expected that. easy is a low bar, but that's amazing.

I think it's important to say, no FaD character will ever be on par with Palps, Yoda, Bane, or otehr Iconic Star Wars personalities.

The issue is that there are plenty of instances of Battle Meditation being used on stormtroopers and ship's captains, compelling them to action, and those guys have probably 2-4 ranks in Discipline.

Also, I see no reason that we couldn't build any of the iconic characters with the rules as they stand. What can Palpatine do that cannot be replicated with the rules now? Yoda? It's all just a matter of how much XP you want to spend.

I suggest the following:

Control: The user may make an Easy (π) Leadership check combined with the

Battle Meditation power check. If the user is able to activate the power

and succeeds on the check, he may send simple orders as part of the power. If you spent (Dark), you may use Coersion for this check instead, and the target cannot disobey without passing a Simple Disipline check. If you do, take 1 conflict per target.

Mastery: If the user did not use (Dark) to generate (force), choose one skill. While affected

by the power, each affected character counts as having the same number

of ranks in the chosen skill as the affected character with the most ranks

in the skill. If the user did not use (Light) to generate (force), each affected character may be the target of another force power- Ignore the other power's normal range and target restrictions.

This moves the "OMG MIND CONTROL" to a level where it's weakness is appropriate, and replaces it with an effect that's harder to pull off (needing all darkside instead of just 1 darkside), but is comparable to lightside's skill sharing. (It also replicates vader's comm screen force chokes- there's no reason it has to be a GOOD power you channel. )

No commentary on this solution?

Because it also let you use Influence on your allies at Battle Meditation ranges, it is also a much "harder" mind control than the easy discipline check. Also you could use Protect on them, or Sence their thoughts...

If you do it that way and since an easy check is easy to make and if they make it they have to disobey, why wouldn't you simply issue orders that are the exact opposite of what you really want them to do?

"I order you not to kill yourself."

[NPC or PC you're annoyed with makes the Easy roll.]

Therefore they must disobey your order not to kill themselves.

They kill themselves.

The best part is that the stronger their will is and the more levels of related talents (like Adversary), the more likely that this will work.

That's why I rephrased it as "Cannot disobey unless..."

Or perhaps "Cannot disobey without first..."

@Yeti: Again, the target has to genuinely want to disobey.

Do you really think the SS like imperial officers have much of a care whether they conduct orbital bombardment? Do you think their careers will last long disobeying orders left and right?

Some common sense is missing from this discussion. Generally, a target will only disobey the orders that they would not already do.

So storm troopers will most likely kill those ewoks, not because their being compelled by a monolithic mental power from 7 sectors away, but because the sergeant said "kill them ewoks!" and they want to get paid (not to mention that ewoks are inhuman scum).

@Yeti: Again, the target has to genuinely want to disobey.

Do you really think the SS like imperial officers have much of a care whether they conduct orbital bombardment? Do you think their careers will last long disobeying orders left and right?

Some common sense is missing from this discussion. Generally, a target will only disobey the orders that they would not already do.

So storm troopers will most likely kill those ewoks, not because their being compelled by a monolithic mental power from 7 sectors away, but because the sergeant said "kill them ewoks!" and they want to get paid (not to mention that ewoks are inhuman scum).

I'm thinking more of pushing commanders of capital ships to fire upon an enemy that has stood down for a cease fire, or pushing officers known to be calm and collected into a fighting frenzy.

Even then, most imperial military members are going to follow that order without being compelled. because otherwise they get arrested, and thrown in the brig, court Martial'd, etc.

Krix Madine is a rarity in the empire, and to one extent or another there were conscientious (sp?) objectors, but they were kinda silenced and the military machine marched on.

I hate to invite any Nazi comparisons, because internets, but look at fascist/totalitarian military apparatuses from the last century. force powers have nothing on peer pressure.

Lord Kaan, in the Bane books uses Battle Med to give his troops an ADVANTAGE in combat, and against the Republic Navy, he has resounding victories. In one particular battle, the Jedi attempt to use Battle Med with their own troops and very nearly defeats him. Only through the actions of another Sith Lord who infiltrates the enemy ship and assassinates the Jedi, is Kaan able to turn the tide of the battle back into his favor. That one battle demonstrates that the Light Side Battle Med is more powerful than the Dark Side of the power.