So there is one point deference between Corran Horn and Dash Rendar. And no point cost difference between the low nameless E-wing and an outer rim smuggler. Or only 3 points different between a fringer and a knave pilot. What do you think is it that makes the E-wing so costly?

The E-wing has 3 attack, 3 agility, and lots of potential upgrade slots, but the generics still seem to be over costed by around 3 points in my models.

Edit: note this did not answer your question. But the developers in an interview with Team Covenant did say that it is possible the generics cost too much. I wouldn't expect any sort of fixes or revisions though, once cards are printed they're done, and the named pilots have nice abilities.

I know MJ has done more in depth analysis on the E wings (and ships in general) but I find it hard to call the Generic E wings over cost. The closest ship is the Rookie, which costs 7 points less (when adjusting for PS). For those 7 points, you're trading a hull for a shield (presumably 1 point), adding a 3rd agility die (presumably at least 3 points from SD), adding the evade action (presumably 1 point from MF title), giving a better dial (inclusion of 5 straight, 1 extra green, 1 extra K turn), adding the BR action (presumably 2 points from EH EPT), and adding a sensor slot.

If you go and reduce the cost by 3 points to 24 points, it'd be hard to justify ever including a Rookie or Red pilot when you could have a Knave/Blackmoon for 3 points more. Given, the Rookie/Red might be a point or two over cost these days (doesn't' seem to be any reason to include a generic X wing today). But still, the E wing basically has quite a bit more versatility and staying power (with the 3rd agi and evade action), while being just as deadly.

The question really comes down to is 1 pilot skill worth 1 point these days, and I'm thinking the answer is no. And by that I mean for 29 points, you can have a PS3 E wing, or Wedge. The E wing clearly does less damage, but he does survive a bit longer. But Wedge always shoots first, and can kill stuff before they shoot, whereas the E is more likely to die before it shoots. Not to mention that Wedge is more likely to have a shot due to moving last, and ships cannot react to his movement. As such, generics in general are becoming "over cost" because the 1 pilot skill is no longer worth 1 point, perhaps it's 2 PS is worth 3 points... indicating that Wedge's PS9 should cost ~+10 of a Rookie, plus his ability cost, putting him actually at 32 points, not the 29 he actually is.

If you run Corran with r2d2, ptl and FCS or AS you will be impressed. If the generics had an ept they wouldn't be over-costed IMO.

That math kinda sorta works, but the thing is upgrades cost points, and you can only use so many actions at a time, so simply having more actions can only increase value so much.

I think they could easily have been 25 points for the PS1 pilots and not been a problem. You could then field 4 naked, and I don't think anyone would think that squad is overpowered with such low PS. Which would you fear more: 4 Daggers (or 2 daggers 2 blue all with FCS) or 4 Knaves? I'm honestly surprised that FFG priced the generic Defenders and E-wings so high after they saw what happened with the Advanced.

What the E-wing needs is a PS4 pilot with an EPT for free. PS4, EPT, 30 points.

I think the problem is that Rebel generics have been overpriced since the game's inception, and it's forced further upgraded ships into that more expensive category. Far too much was put into the value of shields vs just hull. I expect to see more cards like Chaardan Refit in the future.

I know MJ has done more in depth analysis on the E wings (and ships in general) but I find it hard to call the Generic E wings over cost. The closest ship is the Rookie, which costs 7 points less (when adjusting for PS). For those 7 points, you're trading a hull for a shield (presumably 1 point), adding a 3rd agility die (presumably at least 3 points from SD), adding the evade action (presumably 1 point from MF title), giving a better dial (inclusion of 5 straight, 1 extra green, 1 extra K turn), adding the BR action (presumably 2 points from EH EPT), and adding a sensor slot.

I have some new math that I haven't yet published. The old math predicted a jousting value of something like:

C =(1.76*(2+3*1.15)/3); value = 12*C^0.52 = 21.9

22 points of jousting value on a 27 point ship. Ouch.

To better fit the curve to more expensive ships, I changed the formula to:

value = 12*(C^0.54 + (C^1.25)/150 - 1/150)

But I also changed how to calculate normalized durability, (2+3*1.15)/3) in the above to the average number of shots required to kill the ship, instead of using average damage values. That basically favors low HP ships over everything else. I don't know the exact # offhand but it's probably around 1.7, vs 1.8 in the above method. Attack value of 3 dice also drifted down closer to 1.7, from 1.76, since there are so many Falcons flying around. All said and done the updated value is actually a hair lower than before, slightly below 22 points.

The ship has great upgrades and a dial, you can spot it 2 points for just that, so 24 would be fair.

Rookies and Reds could comfortably be 1 point less each, although a 5X squad would be super cost efficient.

I know MJ has done more in depth analysis on the E wings (and ships in general) but I find it hard to call the Generic E wings over cost. The closest ship is the Rookie, which costs 7 points less (when adjusting for PS). For those 7 points, you're trading a hull for a shield (presumably 1 point), adding a 3rd agility die (presumably at least 3 points from SD), adding the evade action (presumably 1 point from MF title), giving a better dial (inclusion of 5 straight, 1 extra green, 1 extra K turn), adding the BR action (presumably 2 points from EH EPT), and adding a sensor slot.

I have some new math that I haven't yet published. The old math predicted a jousting value of something like:

C =(1.76*(2+3*1.15)/3); value = 12*C^0.52 = 21.9

22 points of jousting value on a 27 point ship. Ouch.

To better fit the curve to more expensive ships, I changed the formula to:

value = 12*(C^0.54 + (C^1.25)/150 - 1/150)

But I also changed how to calculate normalized durability, (2+3*1.15)/3) in the above to the average number of shots required to kill the ship, instead of using average damage values. That basically favors low HP ships over everything else. I don't know the exact # offhand but it's probably around 1.7, vs 1.8 in the above method. Attack value of 3 dice also drifted down closer to 1.7, from 1.76, since there are so many Falcons flying around. All said and done the updated value is actually a hair lower than before, slightly below 22 points.

The ship has great upgrades and a dial, you can spot it 2 points for just that, so 24 would be fair.

Rookies and Reds could comfortably be 1 point less each, although a 5X squad would be super cost efficient.

Yeah, there is the problem of scale in this game. Certain things are overpowered at certain levels. 5Xs at 20 pts each would be a very efficient squad.

Luke with R2D2 in a 35 or 36 pt game would be incredibly hard to beat also.

Corran and Etahn are great! you can add Ad. sensors, FCS, EU, Dorids, has good agility, good attack, excellent dial...

Im eager to play Dash Rendar us well, but need to be tested first to understand really how it works.

Generic E wing, well MajorJuggler has show out maths!

All said and done the updated value [of the E-wing] is actually a hair lower than before, slightly below 22 points.

Rookies can't be cheaper, because 5X lists would be too much. Rookies could get a hair more powerful, but that's a different conversation.

***

The first problem with E-wings is that PS is, more or less by convention, priced at 1 point per +1--but it isn't worth nearly that much, at least not for every +1 to PS. The first couple of points are worth almost nothing, since PS1 has a blocking advantage over PS2 to counter its attacking disadvantage; then there's a big jump in value from PS4 (typically the highest available generic) to PS5, and then there's another lull where PS isn't worth that much before you get to the very competitive PS8-9 range.

So if Corran is about right (he's at least not very wrong, since he's been successful even in the tournament environment) and the designers don't want to just throw the existing cost structure out the window, there's a soft floor for Knave Squadron at 8-9 points less than Corran's 35.

***

But even if you do throw that structure out the window, you have to look not just at the generics but at the generics with available upgrades. What's it worth to have a generic arc-dodger with 3 Attack, 5 hit points, and Advanced Sensors? Advanced Sensors B-wings took over the metagame for about six months; what lesson should FFG have taken from that, if not that the systems upgrade slot is worth a little bump of its own sometimes?

And what about a generic ship that can combine free FCS target locks with R7 Astromech and, potentially, focus too? I've had to kill one of those in the endgame, and not only was it quite difficult, but a hair's worth of change on the dice would have meant it killed my Bounty Hunter instead.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and this isn't going to be new to you, is that the model is a guideline but it's incomplete (in ways that are fundamental to the task). Are the generic E-wings priced too conservatively? Arguably so; I'm defending them here, but I'm also not particularly champing at the bit to run them. (Especially not Blackmoon Squadron.) But it's really hard to support the idea that their cost should be equal to a B-wing's, as the jousting model suggests. Spotting them 2-3 points for a total of 24 or 25 points seems a bit more reasonable, but even then I'm quite leery of the sheer range of ways you can upgrade even a generic E-wing.

Or, to put it another way, purely based on its defensive advantages over the X-wing, 26-27 points is a reasonable valuation for the E-wing. The E-wing is less efficient on offense, which has a negative impact on your estimation of its jousting value, and the Lanchester's model also expects ships to actually increase in efficiency as their point costs increase.

So the model believes it's underperforming, and you believe in the model; I look discretely at some of the things the model is aggregating, put it on the table to get a feel for it, and think it would have been good at 26, very good at 25, and too good at 24. If I were in the position of FFG's designers, trying to put a price tag on it without the benefit of a few months of it living out in the wild... I don't think I can fault them too much for the decision they made.

For E-wings, well for one it is a 3 firepower and a 3 agility ship whit 3 shields. (Tie Defender is the only ship with that stat match up). Also the dial has a green 3 maneuver can go up to 5 straight and 2 K-turns.

It is the heaviest shielded ship for its hull and movement dial, and the biggest cost in points I would say is in the action bar which is only matched by the Tie Advanced (A-wing replaces barrel roll for boost).

As for the YT-2400 it is cheaper than the YT-1300 because the stat bonuses that the Unique pilots give. Outer Rim smugglers which is the actual "stock" model of the YT-1300 is cheaper than the fringer.

And no one answers the OP's question :lol: .

And no one answers the OP's question :lol: .

Which was?

So there is one point deference between Corran Horn and Dash Rendar. And no point cost difference between the low nameless E-wing and an outer rim smuggler. Or only 3 points different between a fringer and a knave pilot. What do you think is it that makes the E-wing so costly?

In which I replied:

For E-wings, well for one it is a 3 firepower and a 3 agility ship whit 3 shields. (Tie Defender is the only ship with that stat match up). Also the dial has a green 3 maneuver can go up to 5 straight and 2 K-turns.

It is the heaviest shielded ship for its hull and movement dial, and the biggest cost in points I would say is in the action bar which is only matched by the Tie Advanced (A-wing replaces barrel roll for boost).

As for the YT-2400 it is cheaper than the YT-1300 because the stat bonuses that the Unique pilots give. Outer Rim smugglers which is the actual "stock" model of the YT-1300 is cheaper than the fringer.

Good thoughts Vorpal.

A few points:

• Corran's ability is very powerful, and he is doing very well in tournaments, so obviously you can't change his cost, as you pointed out. But you also can't accurately cost the generic ships around him. We already have precedent for a different cost structure with other ships anyway, Rhymer being the most flagrant example.
• The model's certainty for total E-wing cost (including dial and upgrades) should be fairly high, because all of the E-wing's functionality can be found on other ships, so we have a good comparative baseline. At 24 points it would still have a lower total predicted efficiency than the B-wing. Both have a system slot and 3 attack. For 2 points more you would gain better durability (edit: latest numbers about 16%), a better dial, astromech slot, and 1 less PS. It is a reasonable trade.

And lastly, the E-wing's jousting efficiency at 27 points is about the same as the TIE Advanced.

Q.E.D.

OK, kidding about the QED. Mostly.

Edit: in regards to the OP: it is very difficult to compare a turreted ship to a non turreted ship. The best comparison for the YT-2400 are the ORS YT-1300, named ORS, and VT-49.

I don't if I would have dropped their points, but I could see the logic behind keeping the same cost and moving the base generics to PS3 and PS5 in the same way that the Phantom got. I would do the same for the Defender as well. It represents them being elite ships pretty well, and really doesn't take away anything much from the named pilots (since they have EPT's). E'tahn becomes the obvious odd one out, where the his PS would be the same as a generic worth 3 points less. But his ability plus EPT is easily worth 3 points in my opinion.

I know some people would grumble because they like to block with PS1's etc. But realistically I would like to see the ship costed off a baseline PS rather than costed off PS1 all the time. So as elite ships the generic E-wings and Defenders would effectively get free PS instead of a cost reduction per se to represent the higher quality of pilots assigned to that ship. This avoids the ability to spam them, but makes them worth their points. It wouldn't move their costs so relative value across ships stays the same, but you get a little more bang for your buck.

But you know this is all hypothetical hindsight and thus completely useless

I know MJ has done more in depth analysis on the E wings (and ships in general) but I find it hard to call the Generic E wings over cost. The closest ship is the Rookie, which costs 7 points less (when adjusting for PS). For those 7 points, you're trading a hull for a shield (presumably 1 point), adding a 3rd agility die (presumably at least 3 points from SD), adding the evade action (presumably 1 point from MF title), giving a better dial (inclusion of 5 straight, 1 extra green, 1 extra K turn), adding the BR action (presumably 2 points from EH EPT), and adding a sensor slot.

I have some new math that I haven't yet published. The old math predicted a jousting value of something like:

C =(1.76*(2+3*1.15)/3); value = 12*C^0.52 = 21.9

22 points of jousting value on a 27 point ship. Ouch.

To better fit the curve to more expensive ships, I changed the formula to:

value = 12*(C^0.54 + (C^1.25)/150 - 1/150)

But I also changed how to calculate normalized durability, (2+3*1.15)/3) in the above to the average number of shots required to kill the ship, instead of using average damage values. That basically favors low HP ships over everything else. I don't know the exact # offhand but it's probably around 1.7, vs 1.8 in the above method. Attack value of 3 dice also drifted down closer to 1.7, from 1.76, since there are so many Falcons flying around. All said and done the updated value is actually a hair lower than before, slightly below 22 points.

The ship has great upgrades and a dial, you can spot it 2 points for just that, so 24 would be fair.

Rookies and Reds could comfortably be 1 point less each, although a 5X squad would be super cost efficient.

MJ, I wish I understand half of what you said so I could more properly respect you for saying it.

Joking aside, thanks for doing these maths for us.

I don't if I would have dropped their points, but I could see the logic behind keeping the same cost and moving the base generics to PS3 and PS5 in the same way that the Phantom got. I would do the same for the Defender as well. It represents them being elite ships pretty well, and really doesn't take away anything much from the named pilots (since they have EPT's). E'tahn becomes the obvious odd one out, where the his PS would be the same as a generic worth 3 points less. But his ability plus EPT is easily worth 3 points in my opinion.

I know some people would grumble because they like to block with PS1's etc. But realistically I would like to see the ship costed off a baseline PS rather than costed off PS1 all the time. So as elite ships the generic E-wings and Defenders would effectively get free PS instead of a cost reduction per se to represent the higher quality of pilots assigned to that ship. This avoids the ability to spam them, but makes them worth their points. It wouldn't move their costs so relative value across ships stays the same, but you get a little more bang for your buck.

But you know this is all hypothetical hindsight and thus completely useless

I don't think the Defender would benefit at all from being 3 and 5 PS respectively. The fit very well with the other generics of imperial nature like Bounty Hunters, Academy Pilots and Obsidian Squadron pilots.

Oddly enough if you throw a hull upgrade on an E Wing it's the same cost for the generics compared to the Defender generics.

MajorJuggler gave the best data specific answer, but really all of the replies are the true intent of this thread. I wanted to see what others thought. Personally I would think a turret would have a higher base cost than a forward arc gun. I also figure allot of what is discussed also counts towards the tie-defender. It's a great ship but the generics seem off as well. I am not certain a point reduction is really what is needed, but wanted to see other people's thoughts on the reasons FFG made the decision they did.

I think the higher PS suggestion by ID XT is a pretty great alternative to a Chardaan refit type point reducer. That our an EPT one every ship is also intriguing.

MajorJuggler gave the best data specific answer, but really all of the replies are the true intent of this thread. I wanted to see what others thought. Personally I would think a turret would have a higher base cost than a forward arc gun. I also figure allot of what is discussed also counts towards the tie-defender. It's a great ship but the generics seem off as well. I am not certain a point reduction is really what is needed, but wanted to see other people's thoughts on the reasons FFG made the decision they did.

I think the higher PS suggestion by ID XT is a pretty great alternative to a Chardaan refit type point reducer. That our an EPT one every ship is also intriguing.

You also should consider the firepower of the Turret. YT-2400 and ORS has only 2 firepower. Now for ships that have 2 firepower they are the most expensive ships. However anyone will tell you how much 3 firepower makes a difference when comparing B-wings to Y-wing or Tie Interceptors to Tie Fighters.

I'm not sure I agree Dagger Squadron. The defender is so expensive that it takes up a rather large proportion of your list that you in some ways want it to be special in some way, it is an elite ship after all. Let's face it I can't see anybody taking the PS3 defender (with or without a HLC), it doesn't really help you in the PS bid and costs you 2 points more for an already premium ship. Now if it was 2 points to go to PS5 I could see it as a viable upgrade as that is a PS bid that beats all other generics (mostly) and some named pilots.

The other way to convince people to take a PS3 defender would be to give it an EPT, and that also might have been a viable option.

It's hard to compare the other PS1 and 3 generics for other ships because TIEs and interceptors also have 4's available and EPT's mixed in (and 6's for interceptors) and TIEs also only pay 1 pt for 2 PS so it's cheap relative to E's and D's. A-wings have the EPT for their PS3 so it is not comparable either.

Also just to give another comparison the bounty hunter is 31 points at PS1 to the 30 for the defender. 30 for the defender at PS3 seems much more comparable to the PS3 Bounty Hunter at 33 points. Don't get me wrong the defender is a great ship but thematically and gameplay wise I think the higher PS baseline fits the ships profile better. It's pretty odd that the best of the best pilots are as skilled as academy pilots.

All said and done the updated value [of the E-wing] is actually a hair lower than before, slightly below 22 points.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and this isn't going to be new to you, is that the model is a guideline but it's incomplete (in ways that are fundamental to the task). Are the generic E-wings priced too conservatively? Arguably so; I'm defending them here, but I'm also not particularly champing at the bit to run them. (Especially not Blackmoon Squadron.) But it's really hard to support the idea that their cost should be equal to a B-wing's, as the jousting model suggests. Spotting them 2-3 points for a total of 24 or 25 points seems a bit more reasonable, but even then I'm quite leery of the sheer range of ways you can upgrade even a generic E-wing.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for spelling this correctly. You're the best.

All said and done the updated value [of the E-wing] is actually a hair lower than before, slightly below 22 points.

I guess what I'm trying to say, and this isn't going to be new to you, is that the model is a guideline but it's incomplete (in ways that are fundamental to the task). Are the generic E-wings priced too conservatively? Arguably so; I'm defending them here, but I'm also not particularly champing at the bit to run them. (Especially not Blackmoon Squadron.) But it's really hard to support the idea that their cost should be equal to a B-wing's, as the jousting model suggests. Spotting them 2-3 points for a total of 24 or 25 points seems a bit more reasonable, but even then I'm quite leery of the sheer range of ways you can upgrade even a generic E-wing.

I missed this earlier, just noticed it from Danthrax's post.

To clarify, I meant that the jousting value of the E-wing would be worth 22 points. Once you add everything else to try and get a total value, you are looking a couple points higher, so I certainly didn't mean to say that it should be as cheap as a B-wing.

Now that I have the numbers in front of me, I'm getting an E-wing jousting value of 20.9 to 21.5, typical 21.2. B-wing: 18.9 - 20.0, typical 19.5.

The E-wing has better upgrades and a dial, so the E-wing's coefficient is ~1.23, the B-wing's is ~1.165.

When you factor that in, the total predicted value is 23.7 typical for the E-wing and 21.2 typical for the B-wing. So according to that model, the B-wing is undercosted by 0.2 points, and the E-wing is overcosted by 3.3 points.

Also note: the E-wing jousting efficiency at 24 points is still a hair lower than the TIE Interceptor's jousting efficiency. So 24 points really isn't too high, the E-wing is still paying for its upgrades.

I'm not sure I agree Dagger Squadron. The defender is so expensive that it takes up a rather large proportion of your list that you in some ways want it to be special in some way, it is an elite ship after all. Let's face it I can't see anybody taking the PS3 defender (with or without a HLC), it doesn't really help you in the PS bid and costs you 2 points more for an already premium ship. Now if it was 2 points to go to PS5 I could see it as a viable upgrade as that is a PS bid that beats all other generics (mostly) and some named pilots.

The other way to convince people to take a PS3 defender would be to give it an EPT, and that also might have been a viable option.

It's hard to compare the other PS1 and 3 generics for other ships because TIEs and interceptors also have 4's available and EPT's mixed in (and 6's for interceptors) and TIEs also only pay 1 pt for 2 PS so it's cheap relative to E's and D's. A-wings have the EPT for their PS3 so it is not comparable either.

Also just to give another comparison the bounty hunter is 31 points at PS1 to the 30 for the defender. 30 for the defender at PS3 seems much more comparable to the PS3 Bounty Hunter at 33 points. Don't get me wrong the defender is a great ship but thematically and gameplay wise I think the higher PS baseline fits the ships profile better. It's pretty odd that the best of the best pilots are as skilled as academy pilots.

The reason p's 3 and 5 defenders would suck to me in my own opinion is that at 1 and 3 it manuevers at the same time as your low cost support ships. The reason this is so important to me is that you can manuever more effectively. You can move you Academy Pilot out of the Defender's way and vice versa without the stress of very multi layered PS level.

And as an aside imperials have a great ability for chained swarm tactics with Black squadron pilots making PS less important as points committed to generic pilot skills. Also pilot skill bidding means nothing to me when it's lower than 8. There is very little that can shoot first before you at that level where at a 5 almost every named pilot is going simultaneously or before you.

As far as comparing interceptors to defenders they really do not compare at all. One is a arc dodging devil and the other is a variable speed and angle tank with double the health.

Defender generics do not need EPTs. The don't really need anything to make then work well on their own and that is a contribution to why they are still not being received well. People want their tweaked and specific tailored ships to do what they set them up for.

If you'd like we can message about this more. Posting long replies sucks on my phone lol

The jousting value is only part of the story. You also have to account for player skill level and in the end it is a dice game. Taking a ship that comes in a little high in the jousting value and is flown by Paul is a lot different than the same ship flown by me. Paul's skill will gain him the lost points over the course of the match. I do however feel the better players naturally gravitate towards the better value ships as they become even more dangerous in their hands.

I imagine it's hard to accurately quantify the "opportunity cost" of upgrade slots. You figure the shop is worth more if it can take them but it still needs to have points within a 100 point cap open to spend on the available upgrades.