A bunch of sword swinging mooks charge at a makashi duelist. Does he get his swashbuckling bonus, of does the single minion group count as multiple foes?

I think they count as multiple foes.

But 'tis a silly talent.

Going by the reading of Multiple Opponents, a group of minions is considered to be "multiple adversaries", so the bonus from Duelist's Training wouldn't apply (though as currently written the inherent drawback certainly would). But the Shii-Cho Knight with the Multiple Opponents talent is certainly happy to engage a minion group.

A bunch of sword swinging mooks charge at a makashi duelist. Does he get his swashbuckling bonus, of does the single minion group count as multiple foes?

I don;t understand the question... no self respecting Makashi Duelist would ever bother taking Duelist Training, it just gets in the way all the time.

Hence why we need to provide feedback. Right now I understand this to be a passive talent. Perhaps it is better as an active talent that can be turned on and off with an incidental. One possible adjustment to that one.

I think that ALL passive talents needs to be read as "can be turned off" if the player wants them off. It's just that they are easy for the player to use and have no "cost" beyond the exp invested in them. At lest that's how I would read it.

Hence why we need to provide feedback. Right now I understand this to be a passive talent. Perhaps it is better as an active talent that can be turned on and off with an incidental. One possible adjustment to that one.

It just needs the setback die dropped. No fiddly "turned on and off", just make it almost as good as putting Curved Hilts on your lightsaber...

I commented in the thread on the talent itself along this same issue. I'm confused as to why so many people seem to end up in a huge clump of melee that this is a regular problem. Being engaged with someone is such a tight space anyway that I don't imagine you'll run into that problem a lot unless you're fighting a bunch of thugs in a room the size of my bathroom, or the GM is just trying to hose you a little. Between having party members to take some of the heat off of you and having ranged opponents you shouldn't be in huge clumps of bad guys all that often. On the other hand if you walk into a den of club-wielding thugs, yell "come and get me" and let them surround you, maybe you should rethink your career choice as a duelist.

All that said, the one thing that bothers me about form talents is that they are all active at the same time. In other Star Wars games you switched between forms as the situation dictates, The idea of you being able to use both Makashi and Shii-Cho expertise at the same time feels funny to me. If they did put in a turn-off option, I would like it to take more than an incidental so there is a chance that the "makashi is a terrible form to choose if you're fighting multiple people" thing kicks in.

I commented in the thread on the talent itself along this same issue. I'm confused as to why so many people seem to end up in a huge clump of melee that this is a regular problem. Being engaged with someone is such a tight space anyway that I don't imagine you'll run into that problem a lot unless you're fighting a bunch of thugs in a room the size of my bathroom, or the GM is just trying to hose you a little. Between having party members to take some of the heat off of you and having ranged opponents you shouldn't be in huge clumps of bad guys all that often. On the other hand if you walk into a den of club-wielding thugs, yell "come and get me" and let them surround you, maybe you should rethink your career choice as a duelist.

In a game about the Force, where lightsabers are the primary weapon, what range do you think combat will take place at?

Melee is very effective, even in a game about blasters - especially when your opponents have rifles.

Unlike games with strict movement rules, the narrative style makes it easy for multiple opponents to engage you at once.

But even that's not necessary. They don't have to fight you, they just have to get into range - they can be fighting your neighbor, but if they're in engaged range, it's penalties for you.

'Tis a silly talent.

Hence why we need to provide feedback. Right now I understand this to be a passive talent. Perhaps it is better as an active talent that can be turned on and off with an incidental. One possible adjustment to that one.

It just needs the setback die dropped. No fiddly "turned on and off", just make it almost as good as putting Curved Hilts on your lightsaber...

Yet the setback dice is there to represent the Makashi's unique feature specifically in a one-on-one duel. I actually agree with the setback dice being in place if one is in that stance. While I originally suggested an incidental to turn it on and off, I might even argue that it requires a maneuver as the duelist positions themselves in such a way. The idea is, assume a Makashi stance when it is appropriate and gain the benefits in one-on-one lightsaber fights. However, circumstances could change mid-battle where the focused duel is suddenly joined by an interloper. For a Makashi Duelist, that could be off-putting, and would require them to adapt to their style, or choose to retain it, even with the setback dice in play.

You know, I really like Agatheron's suggestion to fix Duelist's Training. It requires some forethought on the part of the player as to when to use the talent and when not to.

As I've noted in other threads discussing/debating/arguing about Duelist's Training, the setback die against multiple foes is thematically appropriate and I like that about the talent, particularly in contrast to Multiple Opponents which offers only a boost die but comes with the inherent drawback of being engaged with multiple opponents (or a minion group) which can tie down the Shii-Cho Knight for one or more rounds as they work to dispatch their foes (particularly given the reduced damage values of your standard lightsaber).

If it stays as-is I imagine duelists who take it will just become a lot more aware of their positioning and work harder at keeping their duels at short or medium range to all the other fighting going on.

Yes. Much in the same way Dooku separates Obi-Wan and Anakin in their fight so he can bring his skills to bear on them individually. Force pushes and lightning can turn your opponents into bystanders quickly

If it stays as-is I imagine duelists who take it will just become a lot more aware of their positioning and work harder at keeping their duels at short or medium range to all the other fighting going on.

That approach would require a degree of tactical thinking, which is very much in line with Makashi having it's roots in classic dueling styles and it's focus on lightsaber vs. lightsaber combat.

Of course, that could also be more thinking than some players want to be bothered with, who instead just want to hack and slash their way through the bad guys.

I might even argue that it requires a maneuver as the duelist positions themselves in such a way.

The difference is, an aim maneuver has to be taken each turn. Once Makashi duelist is activated, it's benefits remain in play, allowing for things like an aim maneuver or moving around the combat space.

The difference is, an aim maneuver has to be taken each turn. Once Makashi duelist is activated, it's benefits remain in play, allowing for things like an aim maneuver or moving around the combat space.

That's apparently more creative thinking than evileyeore wants to be bothered with if his response to your idea is anything to go by.

As for making the talent "activated," I'd think it'd work better as an Incidental vs. being a Maneuver to trigger, with the effects lasting until the start of the character's next turn. Combine it with how initiative slots work, and you've got the option for some interesting tactical choices as to when the duelist goes during the initiative order. Go late in one round to see how many enemies they have to deal with, decide to use the talent if they can arrange to be engaged with only a single foe once their turn comes up, and then be one of the first PCs to act in the next round to either finish off their opponent or to switch out of the Duelist's Style talent if it looks like they're about to be ganged up on.

The difference is, an aim maneuver has to be taken each turn.

And?

Not seeing a terrible issue with that. Considering (under your variant) the Duelist is faced with having to either take Maneuvers to enter/leave the 'stance', take Aim Maneuvers to 'offset' the Setback die when kitten swarmed by Minions, or take Maneuvers to move about trying to only engage one foe at time.

If half the combats were mono e mono, then sure, your variant would mean the Duelist gets a bene in half of their fights and it's not that terrible (it would be on par with the Multiple Opponents Talent).

If your variant were adopted by FFG I'd do as I'm currently going to do**, simply never take the Talent, spend those 10EXP somewhere else, and occasionally take an Aim maneuver if I feel I really need another Boost.

Oh, and spend 1000 credits and get the same benefit as Duelist Training from a hilt with none of the drawback .

Except I presume the talent stacks with the hilt.

I like the idea that the penalty can be avoided if the player can describe a resonable means to avoid being actively engaged by multiple opponents. He can also use advantage and triumph is a creative manner.

If you have a player that wants to jump from table to table, swing on light fittings and spiral staircases then you have the perfect talent to get them involved and creating a bonus for themselves. Allow the penalty to be removed in a simple and creative manner is far better than just removing the talent because the penalty doesn't behave in a pure mechanical way.

The GM part of me is looking at this going, what a great way to get a player to engage in the narration of the combat and helping you make awesome.