maybe this has already been answered (or everyone but me already knew... ), but my search-fu is weak and while i found some posts relevant to this question, they seem to be in disagreement.

rereading the rulebook i realised that i may have played using force points wrong. when you roll and get only dark side pips, you can't spend destiny to flip one or more of them. you can only do that if you already have a white side point (that naturally needs to be rolled first). i understand that in the new beta there is a talent that would be relevant here.

eote, s.278 "activating powers"

"...may chose to to allow one or more dsp to generate additional force points - in addition to the lsp ."

until yesterday i thought you could flip any dark side point, so i guess i cheated a lot when my character was just a pathetic little force bumbler. he's feeling much better now, thank you very much.

am i mistaken or is my new understanding correct? i think this could be something others might have missed as well.

I may be wrong on this, but as far as destiny points are concerned dark is for the GM to use, Light for PCs, if the PCs don't hve ny Light side they need to wait for the GM to use a dark side. One a Destiny point is used the point gets flipped. Example GM uses a dark side point. the point gets turned to a light side point when used.

How Destiny Points are used, pag 27 EotE Core Book

i should have clarified, i am only talking about activating force powers. my bad.

SOmeone is going to correct me on this I know and thats fine, the way I read pg 278, the points don't come from Destiny Points but rather the roll that the player makes.

"Unless stated otherwise in the power's description, acti­vating a Force power is an action. When a Force-sensitive character attempts to activate a power , he creates a dice pool that consists solely of a number of Force dice equal to his Force rating . He then rolls the dice. Every light side result generates one Force point the character may spend to fuel the power's abilities. Every dark side result generates no Force points, and is disregarded." pg 278, EotE Core

So I have a Force Rating 1 (my dice pool is 1) and roll dark side, I can't use it.

Force Rating 2 my dice pool is 2. and roll 1 light 1 dark, I can use it 2 dark no can do, and so on.

I don't see anything about flipping a destiny point. Now if I was a GM and my force user roled unsuccessfully, I might allow him to flip a destiny point to change the roll to a light side with a good excuse and permission from other players.

*Sorry bout the edits, didn't make sure of my editing before I posted.

I don't see anything about flipping a destiny point. Now if I was a GM and my force user roled unsuccessfully, I might allow him to flip a destiny point to change the roll to a light side with a good excuse and permission from other players.

eote, s.278 "activating powers"

"a force sensitive character in eote who wishes to use one or more dsp to provide force points for his power must flip one destiny point from light to dark..."

Thats if he doesn't role a Light from his dice pool. So yes I agree, the the player doesn't make his roll and there are no light side Destiny points to flip then the Force use is a for lack of a better term "fail".

This goes back to pg 27 Light side DP are for players, Dark side for GM.

Could the confusion result from the following?

Dark Side Point = Destiny Point Pool

Dark Side Force Point = Black Dots on the Force Die

To answer the question. A Force User can flip a Light Side Point from the Destiny Point Pool to a Dark Side Point, suffer one Strain per Dark Side Force Point he wants to use and can then use the Dark Side Force Point from the Force Die for the Force Power.

maybe this has already been answered (or everyone but me already knew... ), but my search-fu is weak and while i found some posts relevant to this question, they seem to be in disagreement.

rereading the rulebook i realised that i may have played using force points wrong. when you roll and get only dark side pips, you can't spend destiny to flip one or more of them. you can only do that if you already have a white side point (that naturally needs to be rolled first). i understand that in the new beta there is a talent that would be relevant here.

eote, s.278 "activating powers"

"...may chose to to allow one or more dsp to generate additional force points - in addition to the lsp ."

until yesterday i thought you could flip any dark side point, so i guess i cheated a lot when my character was just a pathetic little force bumbler. he's feeling much better now, thank you very much.

am i mistaken or is my new understanding correct? i think this could be something others might have missed as well.

The phrase, "in addition to the LSP" should be taken to mean "in addition to any LSP." Otherwise, like you say, a FR 1 player would be screwed. And I mean, you're spending a Destiny Point for this, so it makes sense not to limit it to only mixed results on the Force power roll.

Thats if he doesn't role a Light from his dice pool. So yes I agree, the the player doesn't make his roll and there are no light side Destiny points to flip then the Force use is a for lack of a better term "fail".

Further relevant info on Force Power Checks (from the same section as above): "A Force power is always “successfully” activated, even if the check does not generate any Force points to spend on the power."

I'd also point out, again, that a Destiny Point can be spent and the appropriate amount of strain suffered to use any number of Dark Side pips to generate Force Points on a Force Power Check, in addition to any Light Side pips.

SOmeone is going to correct me on this I know and thats fine, the way I read pg 278, the points don't come from Destiny Points but rather the roll that the player makes.

"Unless stated otherwise in the power's description, acti­vating a Force power is an action. When a Force-sensitive character attempts to activate a power , he creates a dice pool that consists solely of a number of Force dice equal to his Force rating . He then rolls the dice. Every light side result generates one Force point the character may spend to fuel the power's abilities. Every dark side result generates no Force points, and is disregarded." pg 278, EotE Core

So I have a Force Rating 1 (my dice pool is 1) and roll dark side, I can't use it.

Force Rating 2 my dice pool is 2. and roll 1 light 1 dark, I can use it 2 dark no can do, and so on.

I don't see anything about flipping a destiny point. Now if I was a GM and my force user roled unsuccessfully, I might allow him to flip a destiny point to change the roll to a light side with a good excuse and permission from other players.

*Sorry bout the edits, didn't make sure of my editing before I posted.

I am confused as to where on pg 278 you are talking about, if you are talking about the side bar in the bottom right of that pg then all it saying that if the player is a dark side user, then just flip the light points to reflect the dark side. So as I mentioned above:

Dark Side User:

So I have a Force Rating 1 (my dice pool is 1) and roll light side, I can't use it.

Force Rating 2 my dice pool is 2. and roll 1 light 1 dark, I can use it 2 light no can do, and so on.

The one para that talks about the destiny pool still has not changed except possibly flipping a dark side point to use light side as dark side Force points.

Could the confusion result from the following?

Dark Side Point = Destiny Point Pool

Dark Side Force Point = Black Dots on the Force Die

To answer the question. A Force User can flip a Light Side Point from the Destiny Point Pool to a Dark Side Point, suffer one Strain per Dark Side Force Point he wants to use and can then use the Dark Side Force Point from the Force Die for the Force Power.

Almost... and this is a fine point:

Force Points are generated by [LS] pip on the Force die on a Force power check.

Force points can be generated by [DS] pip on the Force die, if a player is willing to flip a Destiny Point and suffer strain per pip used.

Lastly, a character always has the option of having any given [LS] or [DS] pip not generate a Force Point on a Force power check. So the Light Side Pip doesn't automatically mean "Force Point." It is only used to generate Force Points. Similarly, the Dark Side pip can be used to generate Force Points at a (rather high) cost.

Awayputurwpn, read that also, but if you have no light side from your force power activation and light side points in the destiny pool, your have no points to use. How does that equate to always successfully activate? I can see if you are using the move power the object vibrates a little, but If you are using Sense, then what do you Sense with out rolling what you needed on the Force Die and no light side destiny points? What do you influence?

I'm glad shlominus asked his question because i caused me to read that section more fully.

Believe it or not I would prefer to hear exactly how you would answer his question as if you were the first to answer it and maybe you can clarify for both of us.

shlominus , I apologize, if i wasn't clear about the destiny points and the Force points from the action roll to activate the Force power.

pfff, no need to apologize! i am guilty of sloppy wording here.

maybe this has already been answered (or everyone but me already knew... ), but my search-fu is weak and while i found some posts relevant to this question, they seem to be in disagreement.

rereading the rulebook i realised that i may have played using force points wrong. when you roll and get only dark side pips, you can't spend destiny to flip one or more of them. you can only do that if you already have a white side point (that naturally needs to be rolled first). i understand that in the new beta there is a talent that would be relevant here.

eote, s.278 "activating powers"

"...may chose to to allow one or more dsp to generate additional force points - in addition to the lsp ."

until yesterday i thought you could flip any dark side point, so i guess i cheated a lot when my character was just a pathetic little force bumbler. he's feeling much better now, thank you very much.

am i mistaken or is my new understanding correct? i think this could be something others might have missed as well.

You are mistaken

The phrase, "in addition to the LSP" should be taken to mean "in addition to any LSP." Otherwise, like you say, a FR 1 player would be screwed. And I mean, you're spending a Destiny Point for this, so it makes sense not to limit it to only mixed results on the Force power roll.

i am not convinced, despite the fact that until yesterday evening i would have said the same. "In addition to any lsp" still means there has to be a lsp to add to in the first place. i think fr1 means you are, if not screwed, much weaker than i thought.

raw seems clear on this. could whoever bothers the devs with questions all the time clarify this please?

i am not convinced, despite the fact that until yesterday evening i would have said the same. "In addition to any lsp" still means there has to be a lsp to add to in the first place. i think fr1 means you are, if not screwed, much weaker than i thought.

You're overthinking it. Normally the word "any" can include "zero", so the phrase "In addition to any" means you can add any dark side points you've flipped to "zero or more" light side points.

Besides, if they meant "one or more" instead of "zero or more", this situation would never arise with characters with FR1, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't their intent to exclude FR1 characters from this mechanic.

hm... a little convinced.

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with whafrog on this, I took it to mean even if they generated 0 light-side-points they could still flip any dark-side-points by suffering strain and flipping destiny to dark side as normal. The only situation in which they'd completely fail is if they rolled only dark-side-points and had no light side destiny points. I feel if the intent where that they had to roll at least one light side point period that it would have been noted, besides looking at it mechanically flipping the pints and suffering strain can be a heafty cost and is a nice "is it worth it" that should allow the player to just fail if they don't want to suffer those consequences. Similarly I started letting the effects of tapping into the dark side show on my player as and he's roleplayed trying to come back from it, ie violent mood swings, some penalty dice for charm-type checks do to his appearance changing to be a bit more menacing while some boost for coercion checks depending on who he's talking to, etc.

Yeah, IMO the wording "in addition to [LS pips]" is just a clarification that you don't have to choose whether to use LS or DS results; in other words, you can gain generate Force Points from both LS and DS pips on a single check.

I agree with whafrog here shlominus, you're overthinking (as I have been known to do about certain things...droids and the Force Sensitive specializations, Pierce quality, and others!). It gets the best of us from time to time

Awayputurwpn, read that also, but if you have no light side from your force power activation and light side points in the destiny pool, your have no points to use. How does that equate to always successfully activate? I can see if you are using the move power the object vibrates a little, but If you are using Sense, then what do you Sense with out rolling what you needed on the Force Die and no light side destiny points? What do you influence?

To this, I'd say that yeah, it's like Luke using the Force on Hoth to try and grab his lightsaber. He still "used the Force," he just didn't use it with enough power to actually accomplish what he wanted to do.

It is a rather fine point, and I could only guess that it might be intended to interact with other talents/abilities that key off of "When you successfully activate a Force power," or perhaps is a story-driven aspect: just because a PC doesn't generate any Force Points doesn't mean that he didn't touch the Force. If I rolled all [DS pip] results on my Force dice and I was playing a Light Side Paragon-type Jedi, maybe I would choose not to use the Force power in the face of such anger and conflicting emotions. Still, I used my action to activate the power for the purpose of doing other things and for the purposes of the story.

thanks guys, seems i was doing it right all along.