When a character has previously committed Force Dice to power an ability, are these Force Dice subtracted from the character's Lore rating in order to determine the Force Rating of the roll? I would assume so, however, the particulars of the text for committing Force dice and the Knowledge is Power talent may be interpreted otherwise.

p. 196, Committing Force Dice section indicates that, while a Force Die is committed the character's Force Rating is reduced by one, though he remains Force Sensitive for abilities that require Force Sensitivity but do not require rolling Force Dice, even if his Force Rating is reduced to 0. (It is temporary, after all.)

p. 103, Knowledge is Power talent says you replace the Force Rating with Lore ranks for the one roll.

The way that Force Rating is maintained , as opposed to calculated , indicates that the character would always roll their full Lore ranks' worth of Force Dice when using Knowledge is Power.

Example:

Imagine a Character with Force Rating 1, and Lore 2. If this character commits a Force Die to some ability, say the Sense Control defensive power, their Force Rating is considered to be 0 until the power is released. While their Force Rating is 0, they remain Force Sensitive and so may activate Knowledge is Power . They do so, and that roll is as if the character had Force Rating 2, because it ignores the character's Force Rating and simply uses Lore.

It is a once-per-session power, so perhaps this is the intended effect.


My intuition suggests this is not the intended effect, but that the character in the above example should subtract his committed die from his Lore ranks to make the roll with Force Rating 1. This is not how the rule is written.

I would only allow 1 Force die, as I would say the other die is commited

RAW, definitely seems to indicate that you just set the rating as whatever Lore is, regardless of any current force die commitments. It definitely seems a bit overly powerful though.

I'd suggest that if FFG intends for it to be that powerful, that they move it lower down in the tree, possibly swapping it with "Sense Advantage" or something, to kind of bring it in line with other Talents like AoR's Sharpshooter's "Quick Fix" (which allows, once per session, the use of Agility as the base characteristic for a check instead of the default). Otherwise, if they intend it to take committed dice into account, that its position in the tree is fine, but it still needs to be clarified in the text.

It is once per session on one roll. I do believe they mean it to be that powerful.

Have you submitted this question to the Beta Feedback email? It seems perfect for it!

Have you submitted this question to the Beta Feedback email? It seems perfect for it!

Yes, actually. You can generally tell which posts I've made that are copy/pastes of my Beta Feedback emails because I tend to be more formal and have things like page numbers. But I also thought it would be good to discuss it on the forums.

I think the power is just fine. It is for 1 roll per session.

I think the power is just fine. It is for 1 roll per session.

It's not about whether the power is fine, it's what the power is that's in question.

You can roll your knowledge lore rank as force dice. once per session.

Yeah, the way the talent reads, once per session you substitute your current Force Rating for your Know: Lore and roll that.

Given it's a once per session talent, I don't think it's too unbalancing to allow it to disregard that the character has committed one or more Force dice to an effect. In contrast to the Natural X series of talents, which let you see the initial result before you choose to invoke the talent, Knowledge is Power has no assurance of success, even if the character has maxed out their Know: Lore skill.; they could after all roll nothing but dark side facings.

Well the real problem in when Force rating is higher then five (or higher then lore skill), then the talent is useless.

Well the real problem in when Force rating is higher then five (or higher then lore skill), then the talent is useless.

But how often is that going to occur?

For most specs, there's only one Force Rating talent and it's nestled in the 5th Row. Sage and Seer are the exceptions at having 2 Force Rating talents each, and even then it's expensive in terms of XP cost to get both instances.

Overall, it's a lot cheaper to buy up Knowledge: Lore, especially if the talent's intent is to bypass the "you've got Force Dice committed to other things" element that would normally lower a character's Force Rating.

My intuition suggests this is not the intended effect, but that the character in the above example should subtract his committed die from his Lore ranks to make the roll with Force Rating 1. This is not how the rule is written.

My reading is that RAI would be for the player to make the roll with FR2 regardless of whether or not he had an ongoing effect active. The once per session talents are all built to be powerful, I don't see a reason to make the talent more complicated and less useful. Clear the language up sure, but for my money I say just roll with it.

Besides, why couldn't he deactivate the ongoing, then roll, then reactivate? Is it slightly bending the rules and giving him a free move? Sure, but the re-roll talents do something pretty similar and are also once per sessions.

Well the real problem in when Force rating is higher then five (or higher then lore skill), then the talent is useless.

But how often is that going to occur?

For most specs, there's only one Force Rating talent and it's nestled in the 5th Row. Sage and Seer are the exceptions at having 2 Force Rating talents each, and even then it's expensive in terms of XP cost to get both instances.

Overall, it's a lot cheaper to buy up Knowledge: Lore, especially if the talent's intent is to bypass the "you've got Force Dice committed to other things" element that would normally lower a character's Force Rating.

Not often, but in a longer campaign with a Force focused PC it might happen pretty soon. 305 exp if i count it correctly if you only, and yes only, get the talents needed for FR 5. That's basic char + knight level play + two sessions or so.

I know it really not much of a big deal, but adding a few words on the talent like " or +1 FR if lore = normal FR".

Just a minor thing.

Yeah, the way the talent reads, once per session you substitute your current Force Rating for your Know: Lore and roll that.

Given it's a once per session talent, I don't think it's too unbalancing to allow it to disregard that the character has committed one or more Force dice to an effect. In contrast to the Natural X series of talents, which let you see the initial result before you choose to invoke the talent, Knowledge is Power has no assurance of success, even if the character has maxed out their Know: Lore skill.; they could after all roll nothing but dark side facings.

I agree with Donovan - I tend to allow beefier effects on abilities that are 1/session or 1/story (for those White Wolf holdouts).

Well the real problem in when Force rating is higher then five (or higher then lore skill), then the talent is useless.

But how often is that going to occur?

For most specs, there's only one Force Rating talent and it's nestled in the 5th Row. Sage and Seer are the exceptions at having 2 Force Rating talents each, and even then it's expensive in terms of XP cost to get both instances.

Overall, it's a lot cheaper to buy up Knowledge: Lore, especially if the talent's intent is to bypass the "you've got Force Dice committed to other things" element that would normally lower a character's Force Rating.

Not often, but in a longer campaign with a Force focused PC it might happen pretty soon. 305 exp if i count it correctly if you only, and yes only, get the talents needed for FR 5. That's basic char + knight level play + two sessions or so.

I know it really not much of a big deal, but adding a few words on the talent like " or +1 FR if lore = normal FR".

Just a minor thing.

And for that same 305 XP, I could make an incredibly focused Shii-Cho Knight that's a beast in combat with both the Characteristics and Skills to back it up. Heck, with that XP I could make an EotE Marauder that's a bona-fide murder machine. Or an AoR Sharpshooter that could give a fruit fly a vasectomy at Extreme range with an unmodified blaster rifle.

Point is that any hyper-focused build is going to bring out the flaws in this system.

It seems to me that we've come to a consensus everyone can be happy with. The talent entry may use a little verbage to clarify this point, perhaps.

But I'd like to ask everyone's opinion on a new possibility that just occured to me about Knowledge Is Power and Commiting Force Dice. Let's turn this question on it's head:

Committing Force Dice, on p.196, "... the Force-sensitive character commits a number of Force Dice... a character cannot commit more Force Dice than his current Force rating."

So now let's take the example of a character with Force Rating 1 and Lore 1 who happens to also have some Enhance and Sense powers that could each take a commited Force Die. In one turn he commits his Force Die to Sense Control (defense). In the next turn, can he activate Knowledge is Power to make his Force Rating 1, and commit this Force Die to Enhance Control (Brawn +1).

It seems that he should be able to do so, though I'm not sure what happens after that. I mean, Force Rating is not calculated, so there's no mechanistic reason that might suggest one of these Commited Dice should "go away" on a subsequent round. He should simply remain at Force Rating 0 until... when? Probably until he has "released" both commitments or the end of the encounter, I guess.

I would like to take a moment to point out that this is a purely hypothetical and speculative question, and not something that anyone I know would ever attempt.

It seems to me that we've come to a consensus everyone can be happy with. The talent entry may use a little verbage to clarify this point, perhaps.

But I'd like to ask everyone's opinion on a new possibility that just occured to me about Knowledge Is Power and Commiting Force Dice. Let's turn this question on it's head:

Committing Force Dice, on p.196, "... the Force-sensitive character commits a number of Force Dice... a character cannot commit more Force Dice than his current Force rating."

So now let's take the example of a character with Force Rating 1 and Lore 1 who happens to also have some Enhance and Sense powers that could each take a commited Force Die. In one turn he commits his Force Die to Sense Control (defense). In the next turn, can he activate Knowledge is Power to make his Force Rating 1, and commit this Force Die to Enhance Control (Brawn +1).

It seems that he should be able to do so, though I'm not sure what happens after that. I mean, Force Rating is not calculated, so there's no mechanistic reason that might suggest one of these Commited Dice should "go away" on a subsequent round. He should simply remain at Force Rating 0 until... when? Probably until he has "released" both commitments or the end of the encounter, I guess.

I would like to take a moment to point out that this is a purely hypothetical and speculative question, and not something that anyone I know would ever attempt.

Well the talent specifies that "when making a single check". Committing a die isn't a check.

Well the real problem in when Force rating is higher then five (or higher then lore skill), then the talent is useless.

But how often is that going to occur?

For most specs, there's only one Force Rating talent and it's nestled in the 5th Row. Sage and Seer are the exceptions at having 2 Force Rating talents each, and even then it's expensive in terms of XP cost to get both instances.

Overall, it's a lot cheaper to buy up Knowledge: Lore, especially if the talent's intent is to bypass the "you've got Force Dice committed to other things" element that would normally lower a character's Force Rating.

Not often, but in a longer campaign with a Force focused PC it might happen pretty soon. 305 exp if i count it correctly if you only, and yes only, get the talents needed for FR 5. That's basic char + knight level play + two sessions or so.

I know it really not much of a big deal, but adding a few words on the talent like " or +1 FR if lore = normal FR".

Just a minor thing.

And for that same 305 XP, I could make an incredibly focused Shii-Cho Knight that's a beast in combat with both the Characteristics and Skills to back it up. Heck, with that XP I could make an EotE Marauder that's a bona-fide murder machine. Or an AoR Sharpshooter that could give a fruit fly a vasectomy at Extreme range with an unmodified blaster rifle.

Point is that any hyper-focused build is going to bring out the flaws in this system.

Actually i wasn't talking about focusing a build, just that in a longer campaign it will happen sooner or later and pointed out the cost. If a talent will be completely worthless sooner or later and it could be fixed with a small difference in the wording i think it should be done.

It seems to me that we've come to a consensus everyone can be happy with. The talent entry may use a little verbage to clarify this point, perhaps.

But I'd like to ask everyone's opinion on a new possibility that just occured to me about Knowledge Is Power and Commiting Force Dice. Let's turn this question on it's head:

Committing Force Dice, on p.196, "... the Force-sensitive character commits a number of Force Dice... a character cannot commit more Force Dice than his current Force rating."

So now let's take the example of a character with Force Rating 1 and Lore 1 who happens to also have some Enhance and Sense powers that could each take a commited Force Die. In one turn he commits his Force Die to Sense Control (defense). In the next turn, can he activate Knowledge is Power to make his Force Rating 1, and commit this Force Die to Enhance Control (Brawn +1).

It seems that he should be able to do so, though I'm not sure what happens after that. I mean, Force Rating is not calculated, so there's no mechanistic reason that might suggest one of these Commited Dice should "go away" on a subsequent round. He should simply remain at Force Rating 0 until... when? Probably until he has "released" both commitments or the end of the encounter, I guess.

I would like to take a moment to point out that this is a purely hypothetical and speculative question, and not something that anyone I know would ever attempt.

Well the talent specifies that "when making a single check". Committing a die isn't a check.

I guess that takes care of it, then.