And IMO this is another rule that should not be enforced by anyone who isn't a FFG employee. Assuming the card proxies are accurate copies of the real card the no-proxy rule provides absolutely no benefit to either player. The only benefit is to FFG's profits, and I don't see why anyone who isn't a FFG employee should feel obligated to protect their profits.

It isn't a matter of protecting FFG's profits.

FFG produces a game at a price they think is fair, in a structure they think is fair. I pay that. At no point does FFG's profit margin enter my brain - it has nothing to do with it, and I think you know it.

It's a matter of respecting the people who make the game, and respecting how they ask people to play it so they are compensated for their work. I don't play the game with empty bases, Litko firing arc tools and home-printed cards. They produce the game, I buy it and play it as they choose to sell it. I don't always like the way they do things, but if I dislike it that much I don't buy it.

<shrug> Call it as stupid as you want, but I fully expect that everyone will settle down once it's actually out. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth will trickle down to just a handful of people who want to run an 8Z swarm and will grumble about not being able to do it, and despite all the swearing that they'll never do it it'll settle into the same place as printed cards - an occasional pointless grumble that nobody really listens to.

And IMO this is another rule that should not be enforced by anyone who isn't a FFG employee. Assuming the card proxies are accurate copies of the real card the no-proxy rule provides absolutely no benefit to either player. The only benefit is to FFG's profits, and I don't see why anyone who isn't a FFG employee should feel obligated to protect their profits.

Really? You expect a company that is in the business of trying to remain profitable (so they can, y'know, continue to produce product for us to enjoy) to just tell everyone "s'all good, fellas, you only have to buy one or two items and you can forge whatever else you need"? To say that the idea is idiotic would be giving it too much credit.

You want to play this game competitively, then you can bloody well do what the rest of us have to do and pay up to acquire the required components. This is true of every single collectible game on the face of the earth. If you don't like it I suggest you find another hobby.

When have they released more info than they needed to? Why would they give us the whole dial and prevent the argument when they never have done that sort of thing before now?

Honestly, this guy has his whole premise based on the dials being identical in every respect EXCEPT that they're rebel or scum affiliated with different coloured backs. What he's not realizing is that it's a pre-emptive argument based on unknown realities. It is not a fact that the dials are identical until we know what the dial is. At that point, he can complain that FFG is making him spend $40 more than he wants to.

Really people, it's $40-50 we're talking about here. If that's too much money, fly a different set of ships you can afford.

Jacob

Really? You expect a company that is in the business of trying to remain profitable (so they can, y'know, continue to produce product for us to enjoy) to just tell everyone "s'all good, fellas, you only have to buy one or two items and you can forge whatever else you need"? To say that the idea is idiotic would be giving it too much credit.

I completely understand FFG's motivation here. Requiring people to buy redundant dials is good for sales, as long as they don't think they're going to lose too many customers who get annoyed about the issue. What I don't understand is why so many people here (who are presumably not FFG employees) are so eager to protect FFG's profit margins by enforcing rules that provide absolutely no benefit to the people who are actually playing the game.

The only problem I have with that theory is that, if they were going to do it, I would have expected them to say that the dials are different in the announcement article in order to preempt the debate altogether.

It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't see this coming. X-wing is absolutely riddled with situations where you have to buy ships you don't necessarily want to fly a certain way. This is nothing but a slightly different flavor of that.

I can also believe that they said "Having someone running mixed dial colors could be really confusing, now that we have multiple factions you should stick to your factions."

The latter really makes sense. Why print a new baseplate for Boba Fett and Kath? Unless they change PS (which they don't seem to) the only difference is the arc color. Why print a new one? There's probably less confusion regarding base plates than mixed dials, why not just print the cards and let people use the baseplates? After all, it may be relatively trivial but that cardboard does cost.

IMHO it's not about "Woooo, $15 extra bucks because we won't let them cross over that Headhunter dial! Cha-CHING!" It's about the visual. It's about maintaining a cohesive feel for the factions, so that the dials look the same, the baseplates look the same, etc. I really do believe that a half-and-half dial squadron would be confusing, but more than that it would be UGLY.

What I don't understand is why so many people here (who are presumably not FFG employees) are so eager to protect FFG's profit margins by enforcing rules that provide absolutely no benefit to the people who are actually playing the game.

That fact that you're too cheap to see the benefits doesn't mean they're not there.

What I don't understand is why so many people here (who are presumably not FFG employees) are so eager to protect FFG's profit margins by enforcing rules that provide absolutely no benefit to the people who are actually playing the game.

Because letting them have a profit margin means they stay in business, which keeps them making this game, which keeps us playing it. It's not exactly rocket science, mate.

Yes how dare those greedy, greedy jerks expect people to buy the ships they play with....

I can also believe that they said "Having someone running mixed dial colors could be really confusing, now that we have multiple factions you should stick to your factions."

Oh, I would be absolutely shocked if that WASN'T the reasoning behind Franks answer. I have also noticed, however, that Franks email replies tend to be the most conservative, rules as written interpretations of confusing issues (not always, but usually), and it is not that uncommon for those email ruling to be reversed later in more official documents.

So it would not surprise me if they did change their mind regarding this subject once they have had time to think about it and weigh the various arguments.

It really surprises me though that he weighed in on the subject before the product was actually released.

Yes how dare those greedy, greedy jerks expect people to buy the ships they play with....

We are buying the ships. What I object to is having to buy redundant ships just because of a minor aesthetic difference. If I already bought enough y-wing dials to play the list I want to use I shouldn't be forced to buy even more y-wing dials just to make the colors match.

It's about the visual. It's about maintaining a cohesive feel for the factions, so that the dials look the same, the baseplates look the same, etc. I really do believe that a half-and-half dial squadron would be confusing, but more than that it would be UGLY.

This would be a much more compelling argument if repaints weren't allowed. If I can paint all of my ships bright pink (and do a really sloppy job of it) and it is indisputably legal I fail to see how a slight difference in dial colors is a big deal.

That fact that you're too cheap to see the benefits doesn't mean they're not there.

Then please, list those benefits. It isn't the gameplay information since the dials presumably have the same maneuvers and ship labels. It isn't clarity about which faction a ship is from because you can't mix factions and as soon as I say "I'm playing rebels" you know that all of my dials are rebel dials regardless of what color they are. It isn't clarity about which dial goes to which ship since there are no rules preventing both players from using the same color dials when both players are using the same faction. So far the only difference I can see is that FFG gets more profit if you have to use the correct color for your dials.

Yes how dare those greedy, greedy jerks expect people to buy the ships they play with....

We are buying the ships. What I object to is having to buy redundant ships just because of a minor aesthetic difference. If I already bought enough y-wing dials to play the list I want to use I shouldn't be forced to buy even more y-wing dials just to make the colors match.

You bought Rebel Z-95s and Y-wings with the understanding that you would be allowed to field them as part of a Rebel squadron. If you wanted to field a given number, you had to buy that many of them. I heard no one complaining about it then.

You will buy Most Wanted with the understanding that the components will allow you to field a certain number of Scum Z-95s and Y-wings as part of a Scum squadron. If you want to field more than 2, you must buy more. This is no different than with any other ship from any other faction included in any other expansion.

You are trying to take a happy coincidence caused by FFG's policy on repaints, and using it to try and cheat your way out of actually buying their product. Stop it.

You will buy Most Wanted with the understanding that the components will allow you to field a certain number of Scum Z-95s and Y-wings as part of a Scum squadron.

No, I will buy it with the understanding that I can use those components as I like to field whatever number of ships the components allow me to field. I reject your assumption that there is any difference between a scum z-95/y-wing and a rebel z-95/y-wing beyond which pilot card and base you're using.

This is no different than with any other ship from any other faction included in any other expansion.

Of course it is different. With previous ships you did not have enough components to field additional ships. With the new scum ships you do have sufficient components, as long as you aren't a {censored} about enforcing minor aesthetic differences.

You are trying to take a happy coincidence caused by FFG's policy on repaints, and using it to try and cheat your way out of actually buying their product. Stop it.

This is no more cheating one's way out of buying the product than using focus tokens from another ship to add to your stockpile on a HWK. Components are components, the only thing that matters is their gameplay information. Minor aesthetic differences or nitpicking about which box they came in are completely irrelevant.

Of course it is different. With previous ships you did not have enough components to field additional ships.

You do not have enough components to field additional ships in this case, either. All that has changed is which component you're short on. So stop whining, ditch the entitlement complex, and do what we've been doing since this game first launched and people wanted to field more than a single X-wing: buy another ship!

At the moment, we are assuming it is only a aesthetic difference. What if there is more to the differences, whether now or later? I think he is merely trying to cover his bases.

You will buy Most Wanted with the understanding that the components will allow you to field a certain number of Scum Z-95s and Y-wings as part of a Scum squadron.

No, I will buy it with the understanding that I can use those components as I like to field whatever number of ships the components allow me to field. I reject your assumption that there is any difference between a scum z-95/y-wing and a rebel z-95/y-wing beyond which pilot card and base you're using.

The problem is that you have no factual basis for the assumptions you're making in this thread. You have no proof that the only difference between a scum z-95 dial and a rebel z-95 dial is the colour of the back of it.

Seriously, why is this argument giving you such angst and permitting you to use words that get censored by the forum system?

You haven't addressed the core issue, which is your accusations addressed against FFG in light of their providing material for other ships. Let me pose it to you again:

"Why would you assume that FFG is a money hungry company given the following evidence: a) the cost to play this miniatures game is minuscule in comparison with the average popular miniatures games, b) that there is a fiscal reality to this game, that it costs money to produce and in the end isn't really too big a cost for the specific issue being presented here (needing 4 more rebel z-95's costs $40-50), and c) FFG has provided additional dials, cards, and templates to allow 3 other ships to be used from other factions in each Most Wanted pack, the Rebel HWK and Y-Wing expansions, and the Imperial Firespray expansion, which does not seem to add a significant extra cost to this pack, and which is unprecedented in the miniature gaming industry."

Considering the above posted, the real problem seems to be that you feel entitled to run your ships the way you see fit. That's fine. You really are left with two options however - accede to the ruling or quit playing. Obviously in your own casual or perhaps even store environment you would be allowed to do what you want, but to assume that you should enforce your views over the competitive scene of the game is both ego-centric, and as I've said before, shows an extreme level of entitlement.

You don't like the ruling, we get it. Now before you get into further lather, withhold your rage against the issue until it actually IS an issue. Like when the dial is finally revealed.

Jacob

You do not have enough components to field additional ships in this case, either.

Of course I do. The only reason I "don't" have the required components is an arbitrary rule that a minor aesthetic difference matters, a rule that exists for the sole purpose of forcing you to spend more money.

Then surely FFG wouldn't mind me using a TIE interceptor model to represent a TIE fighter that I've lost. The only thing that matters are the numbers on the base and pilot cards, after all.

That's not at all the same because the model is an important part of defining what a ship is. Even though technically the card and base provide all the required information the models are an important part of being able to glance at the table and understand what's going on. You can tell your opponent that the interceptor is a proxy for a fighter, but now they have to invest effort into reminding themselves that the model is representing something else. And it gets a lot more confusing if you also have interceptor models being used as interceptors. In that situation it's very easy to make a mistake about which one is the proxy and make a bad decision.

None of these things apply to the dials. The color of the dial is never something either player needs to look at or keep track of, so there is no possibility for confusion.

You will buy Most Wanted with the understanding that the components will allow you to field a certain number of Scum Z-95s and Y-wings as part of a Scum squadron.

No, I will buy it with the understanding that I can use those components as I like to field whatever number of ships the components allow me to field. I reject your assumption that there is any difference between a scum z-95/y-wing and a rebel z-95/y-wing beyond which pilot card and base you're using.

You are not buying it with an understanding. You are saying you'll buy it under an assumption. You are assuming that both the dials will be identical to those used by the Rebels (questionable, as FFG has indicated Scum Z95s are still going to cost 12 points even with a lower pilot skill), and that tourney officials will still allow you to use those dials in a squad despite rulings to the contrary.

The problem is that you have no factual basis for the assumptions you're making in this thread. You have no proof that the only different between a scum z-95 dial and a rebel z-95 dial is the colour of the back of it.

And you have nothing but wild speculation to even suggest that there are any differences. So far FFG have been absolutely consistent about dials never changing between pilots/upgrades/etc. An x-wing dial is an x-wing dial whether you got it in the core set, x-wing expansion, or transport. Until we see some kind of hint from FFG that the dials have different maneuvers there is no reason to take that possibility seriously.

Why would you assume that FFG is a money hungry company given the following evidence:

Because none of that evidence negates the blatant money-hungry move of requiring you to buy new dials just to match the colors. The only benefit to anyone here is FFG selling more copies of the scum expansions to people who need the extra dials.

You really are left with two options however - accede to the ruling or quit playing.

There's a third option: continue playing and use whatever dials I feel like using. I suspect very few people who aren't FFG employees are going to enforce this rule in their tournaments because it so obviously stupid.

I don't believe anyone is forcing you to buy anything. If you're unhappy with their decision, stop supporting their product. End of debate.

Beyond that, I'm glad to see that we did in fact end up with yet another "OMGZ THE SKYZ IZ FALLINGSS!!!!!!11" thread on unreleased and unrevealed product. Good job everyone. Or one.

The problem is that you have no factual basis for the assumptions you're making in this thread. You have no proof that the only different between a scum z-95 dial and a rebel z-95 dial is the colour of the back of it.

And you have nothing but wild speculation to even suggest that there are any differences. So far FFG have been absolutely consistent about dials never changing between pilots/upgrades/etc. An x-wing dial is an x-wing dial whether you got it in the core set, x-wing expansion, or transport. Until we see some kind of hint from FFG that the dials have different maneuvers there is no reason to take that possibility seriously.

Why would you assume that FFG is a money hungry company given the following evidence:

Because none of that evidence negates the blatant money-hungry move of requiring you to buy new dials just to match the colors. The only benefit to anyone here is FFG selling more copies of the scum expansions to people who need the extra dials.

You really are left with two options however - accede to the ruling or quit playing.

There's a third option: continue playing and use whatever dials I feel like using. I suspect very few people who aren't FFG employees are going to enforce this rule in their tournaments because it so obviously stupid.

Wow.

Just Wow.

Yes, I have no proof. However, I am not making wild speculation at all. In fact, what I'm advocating is being patient, something we all have the capability for, and wait until the actual details of the Scum Z-95 are released. That's my primary advocation, which is literally the opposite of wild speculation.

If you can't actually present my own argument accurately, it doesn't really make your argument stronger.

I would suggest that given the 3 points I've already raised, it actually points towards the opposite of your accusation against FFG. You suggest that it's a blatantly money hungry move. Actually, there are several elements in play, and to boil it down to being money hungry isn't accurate. If you were to say FFG are blatantly money hungry, I would suggest that the proper proof of that would be for FFG to not provide the additional dials and cards for the Y-Wing, Firespray and HWK, but to repackage all three of those ships into new Scum formats and sell them each individually. At that point, I'd say that your argument would hold some accuracy and perhaps weight. However, given that this game is still lower costed than it could be, and that there is a fiscal reality to being the company that pays for licensing fees, pays for game designers, testers, manufacturing, etc., there's still more weight on my argument.

There is the third option that you can do what you want. However, it is a logical falicy to simply call the ruling stupid therefore giving your argument weight. That's just silly. I don't think you really understand the level to which Geeks like us like rules. This ruling will be enforced by the great majority of even casual play. You and I can't really prove that, but I especially don't think it's cool to swing that low in this sort of forum without your burden of proof.

Jacob

My this thread has turned ugly. At least a few people seem to be trying to keep things cool.

At the moment, we are assuming it is only a aesthetic difference. What if there is more to the differences, whether now or later? I think he is merely trying to cover his bases.

If there is an actual difference in the maneuvers seen on the dial then there wouldn't be this argument or at the very least it should be a lot less polarizing. I'm just thinking that it would be a little crazy to have the same ship with different maneuver dials.

You will buy Most Wanted with the understanding that the components will allow you to field a certain number of Scum Z-95s and Y-wings as part of a Scum squadron.

No, I will buy it with the understanding that I can use those components as I like to field whatever number of ships the components allow me to field. I reject your assumption that there is any difference between a scum z-95/y-wing and a rebel z-95/y-wing beyond which pilot card and base you're using.

You are not buying it with an understanding. You are saying you'll buy it under an assumption. You are assuming that both the dials will be identical to those used by the Rebels (questionable, as FFG has indicated Scum Z95s are still going to cost 12 points even with a lower pilot skill), and that tourney officials will still allow you to use those dials in a squad despite rulings to the contrary.

The lowest scum Z-95s may also cost 12 points but there could be reasons for that even with a lower PS than a Bandit. It's possible the scum cards have an additional upgrade slot, even type, available which could account for a higher price. Although it may seem unlikely the cost may even be "fair" especially if anyone would consider a 12 point Bandit the slightest bit underpriced.

If the Scum has just come up with entirely different ships I'm certain we wouldn't be having these discussions. Instead they announce ships that could easily be used with another faction instead along with other pieces that will allow some ships to "change sides" for use.

I also believe that if the Z-95s in Most Wanted aren't to have any use in a Rebel squadron they REALLY should have waited a lot longer to spoil the product. I had two Z-95s and was considering a couple more but when Most Wanted was announced I decided I'd much rather wait then get the ships now. An analogy to that would be the guy who had a TIE Interceptor and was considering getting another one or two; if you hadn't gotten them before Aces was announced I think it would almost have been foolish to get a couple more Interceptor when you could wait for Aces. Perhaps some people had an Interceptor or two and then decided they needed to go and get three or four more expansions after Aces was announced so they didn't wait but I suspect they are a very small minority.

Honestly, this guy has his whole premise based on the dials being identical in every respect EXCEPT that they're rebel or scum affiliated with different coloured backs. What he's not realizing is that it's a pre-emptive argument based on unknown realities. It is not a fact that the dials are identical until we know what the dial is. At that point, he can complain that FFG is making him spend $40 more than he wants to.

Actually, I specifically stated that I was assuming that the dials are identical from a maneuver standpoint. Read my post again.

That's precisely what I said. I think it's not ok to make this argument happen until we see the face if the dial.

You can assume, but it may not be. If it isn't, the whe problem falls apart.

Jacob

Did not anticipate this level of acrimony over this subject, but since I started this thread, I grow a little weary of the comparison to GW. This is not that product or company. If I say, wow, that 30,000 car was cheap compared to my Porsche, that has no bearing on whether the car you bought was worth the price you paid or not. If the manuvers on the dials are the same, and FfG still says you cannot use them, that is gouging plain and simple. Many of the components do in fact cross over. The hawk stuff, the fire spray stuff. It is not unreasonable to expect that you can use identical ships to boost your numbers if you want to use them in a rebel fleet. I love this game. I have 8 xwings, 2 transports, just got a second CR90, 5 bwings, 4 ywings, 3 HWKs, 4 Awings, at least 2 of every large base ship, 5 core sets, 10 ties, 6 ints, at least 4 bombers, I am not done yet but you get the idea. I have dropped a lot of coin on this game. Don't try to invalidate someone's argument by saying pay up or go home. And don't keep making ridiculous comparisons to GW, a game system we all know is over priced. How about we compare it to drop zone commander, which is much cheaper per fig. Apples and oranges you say? Exactly. I clearly don't mind spending money on xwing. I do mind being made to buy stuff I already have so I can use it in either faction. And how about some of you treat each other writh a little more respect. We are all here because we like the same game. We ought to be able to disagree and have a civil discussion. Oh, and how about we let FFG worry about is profits? They have certainly gotten plenty of my money. They don't need to do something dumb with the dials to alienate some of their biggest customers. (Like me)

At the moment, we are assuming it is only a aesthetic difference. What if there is more to the differences, whether now or later? I think he is merely trying to cover his bases.

The discussion would be pointless of course. But what if it is not.

What I don't understand is why so many people here (who are presumably not FFG employees) are so eager to protect FFG's profit margins by enforcing rules that provide absolutely no benefit to the people who are actually playing the game.

Because letting them have a profit margin means they stay in business, which keeps them making this game, which keeps us playing it. It's not exactly rocket science, mate.

We do that already by buying their products, and it is going pretty well. No need for sketchy sales tricks to boost them. To be honest, yes your posture about this is completely unreasonable, and it is more accord to a rabid Fanboy than a sensible customer.