The point is that despite owning 4 Z-95s once I've gotten Most Wanted I still will be unable to run 4 of them despite having the other pieces I need because for some strange reason the dials will not be compatible.

I don't think it's strange at all.

The baseline is very simple: One purchased ship = one flyable ship, and that is restricted by faction.

If you buy one Z-95, you have enough cards and baseplates to run two, but only one dial and ship. This is obviously intentional. One ship purchased means one ship on the board, spare components aside.

Most Wanted is creating a scenario which fills part of that component gap by giving you extra spare components via crossover - in this case the ship model itself. So you feel like they should let you cross over the remaining component.

But that's not the way they intend it to work. I honestly don't see this as any different than asking why they don't give us a second dial with each ship (to go with the extra baseplate) and make the models optional. That would give you multiple ships out of the same box just the same.

The obvious intent is that each ship you buy provides some limiting component so that you can only achieve one playable ship. You can dislike that, especially as the component gap closes, but there's certainly nothing strange or dumb about it.

Stop making analogies to make it sound like it is completely normal. This has no precedent.

Where I am taking issue with FFG's apparent stance here is that if I want to run 4 Z-95s in a Rebel build I MUST buy 4 expansion packs even if I get Most Wanted.

I'm not sure I follow... You think you should be able to run 4 Rebel Z95s in a list even though you don't own any?

He wants to play 8 Z's by having 8 Z's. The enforced dial cross faction is a travesti to sell twice the same model.

Why would you allow me to use" Scum" models as "rebels", if i can't use the scum dials as rebels because suddenly they are completely different models.

I think you realized what he meant the first time, but by your confused response i couldn't be sure.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread that was started a week ago. (Yes this issue has been discussed before). I have no problems supporting a company that puts as much care and support into a game that FFG has. You can't go 2 weeks on this forum without a 'broke a peg and ffg sent me a now of goodies' thread. Go back and watch the tv interview with frank and Alex and tell me this isn't a company that cares about its consumers and it's game. Compare it with other mini games and see that it's pretty cheap in comparison. Look at the rival STAW and tell me that ffg couldn't have gone the 'collectible' route and fleeced its user base. I will gladly buy products from companies that produce quality products. I will gladly support a company that cares as much about its 'bottom line' as it does about the product they produce and their interactions with its customers. Call me a ffg fanboy. But I've never been ultimately disappointed with decisions they made.

I honestly don't see this as any different than asking why they don't give us a second dial with each ship (to go with the extra baseplate) and make the models optional.

It's different because in your hypothetical case you don't have all of the components to make a complete ship (card + dial + base + cardboard). In the real situation we DO have all of the components required. The ONLY reason you can't use that second ship is the completely arbitrary rule that the color of the dial (which has absolutely no gameplay effect) has to be correct. This is like requiring that your HWK only use focus tokens that came from a HWK even though all focus tokens are functionally identical, and requiring you to buy multiple HKW boxes if you want to build a proper stockpile with the title card.

And it gets even more ridiculous when you remember that visual modifications to dials (numbers, etc) are perfectly legal. So:

Print out a copy of the scum z-95 dial face and apply it to the front of your rebel z-95 dial in a rebel squadron = legal.

Use a scum z-95 dial with a rebel z-95 in a rebel squadron = illegal.

Please explain to me how this makes any sense from the perspective of a player or tournament organizer.

Nickotine42 that's fine, and yes, FFG does most of their stuff well, but expecting people to not criticizing what they perceive as poor decissions just because they do other stuff well is not reasonable.

We all love Xwing, if we are on these forums it is because we are passionate about the game.

Print out a copy of the scum z-95 dial face and apply it to the front of your rebel z-95 dial in a rebel squadron = legal.

From the Tournament Rules:

Players may mark their tokens and their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as the function of the component is not compromised.

Emphasis mine. First, such a change would not be done to indicate ownership. Second, since one of the main functions of a dial is to be able to tell whose was whose, marking them in a way which indicated them as a different faction would be confusing and therefore compromising the dial.

So no, such a modification would not be legal under the tournament rules.

First, such a change would not be done to indicate ownership.

Sure it would. Marking those dials with my special scum modification would clearly indicate that they are my dials and ensure that I get them back after each match.

Second, since one of the main functions of a dial is to be able to tell whose was whose, marking them in a way which indicated them as a different faction would be confusing and therefore compromising the dial.

It would only be confusing if it is possible to mix scum and non-scum ships in a single list. If the scum faction works like the existing factions then there is no potential for confusion because you know that all of my dials are rebel dials regardless of my "this is my dial" markings.

So no, such a modification would not be legal under the tournament rules.

Correction: under your bizarre interpretation of the tournament rules. The actual tournament rules published by FFG do not agree with you.

Sure it would. Marking those dials with my special scum modification would clearly indicate that they are my dials and ensure that I get them back after each match.

I see no point in continuing a discussion with someone so dishonest. Have a nice day.

Print out a copy of the scum z-95 dial face and apply it to the front of your rebel z-95 dial in a rebel squadron = legal.

From the Tournament Rules:

Players may mark their tokens and their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as the function of the component is not compromised.

Emphasis mine. First, such a change would not be done to indicate ownership. Second, since one of the main functions of a dial is to be able to tell whose was whose, marking them in a way which indicated them as a different faction would be confusing and therefore compromising the dial.

So no, such a modification would not be legal under the tournament rules.

Interesting that you would use that exact same rule I'd cite as ALLOWING you to use dials no matter the faction.

If the way I "indicate ownership" is to completely black out the tops of my dials how do you know what faction a Z-95 dial belonged to? I have NOT 'Compromised' the function of the dial which is simply to show what maneuver I have selected for the ship.

I see no point in continuing a discussion with someone so dishonest. Have a nice day.

I'll take this as your concession that you don't have a valid argument. Perhaps in the future you should take this as a lesson and consider refraining from making stupid arguments in public?

Interesting that you would use that exact same rule I'd cite as ALLOWING you to use dials no matter the faction.

You or I citing rules is pretty pointless here. FFG has made their decision. Do you seriously think you're going to say "But LOOK HERE! The tournament rules say I can do this!" at which point Frank will say "I hadn't thought of that" and vanish in a puff of logic?

I think claiming that you're marking dials cross-faction is abusing the rule, which is solely intended to mark ownership. But it's really irrelevant. We know what the standard will be. I fully expect that we'll see the tournament rules updated to make it perfectly clear that you must use components that are from the faction your playing, and your attempts to out-parse FFG on their rules in order to change their ruling is going to end in tears.

I see no point in continuing a discussion with someone so dishonest. Have a nice day.

I'll take this as your concession that you don't have a valid argument. Perhaps in the future you should take this as a lesson and consider refraining from making stupid arguments in public?

Oh, not at all.

But if you're truly going to say "My way of marking ownership JUST HAPPENS to let me do something that I really think FFG should allow" then you're a lying dishonest scumbag and not worth the time.

And your declarations of victory are just as dishonest.

Out of curiosity,

Where did the ruling about not being able to use cross faction dials come from? Anyone have a link, because I can't remember and I thought Frank had said he doesn't make rulings on unreleased product.

I see no point in continuing a discussion with someone so dishonest. Have a nice day.

I'll take this as your concession that you don't have a valid argument. Perhaps in the future you should take this as a lesson and consider refraining from making stupid arguments in public?

So you think being called a cheat makes you a winner? Wow. Must be that "whoever screams the loudest wins" mentality. I love these forums.

Yeah, at this point the two sides are too entrenched. Quite frankly, it's absurd to suggest that FFG is only doing this to fleece their customers because it ignores the fiscal reality of selling this game, the drastic cost differential between this miniature game and every other I know (for the good of us honestly) and the fact FFG have generously provided dials and cards and templates that allow us to use our otherwise non-scum Y-Wing, HWK and Firespray ships as Scum ships. If FFG were truly wanting to callously take your money, as opposed to making a ruling you just don't like and aren't willing to get over, they would have packaged each of those extras in with a newly painted ship and made you rebuy them rather than use the pre-existing ships and just getting the essentials with Most Wanted.

Honestly, be grateful and recognize that FFG are doing something of unheard of generosity before you start accusing them of wrong doing. It leaves you looking very entitled and quite whiney.

Jacob

Of course, watch the dials for the scum versions be different somehow, making the entire discussion totally moot.

Out of curiosity,

Where did the ruling about not being able to use cross faction dials come from? Anyone have a link, because I can't remember and I thought Frank had said he doesn't make rulings on unreleased product.

Someone linked it on the previous page.

But if you're truly going to say "My way of marking ownership JUST HAPPENS to let me do something that I really think FFG should allow" then you're a lying dishonest scumbag and not worth the time.

My marking of ownership doesn't allow me to do what I think FFG should allow because I still have to use the rebel dial (and buy an extra one if I don't already have enough). I can't just use my spare scum z-95 dial instead of buying another rebel z-95.

And I'm glad you have to resort to personal attacks and questioning my motives instead of addressing the substance of my argument. What are you going to do if your opponent shows up with those marked dials and says "this is how I show that they're mine"? Scream "LIAR!!!!!!" at them and demand that they be disqualified from the tournament?

I fully expect that we'll see the tournament rules updated to make it perfectly clear that you must use components that are from the faction your playing, and your attempts to out-parse FFG on their rules in order to change their ruling is going to end in tears.

And what I expect is that every TO who isn't a FFG employee will ignore such an obviously stupid rule. The rule that will matter will be the community consensus on how the rule should be interpreted, not some random person from FFG declaring that you have to spend at least $X to play.

Out of curiosity,

Where did the ruling about not being able to use cross faction dials come from? Anyone have a link, because I can't remember and I thought Frank had said he doesn't make rulings on unreleased product.

Someone linked it on the previous page.

Thank you

And I'm glad you have to resort to personal attacks and questioning my motives instead of addressing the substance of my argument.

Irony...

And I'm glad you have to resort to personal attacks and questioning my motives instead of addressing the substance of my argument. What are you going to do if your opponent shows up with those marked dials and says "this is how I show that they're mine"? Scream "LIAR!!!!!!" at them and demand that they be disqualified from the tournament?

There is no substance to your argument. It's the worst sort of disingenuous "Who, me?" dishonesty. You know, if you decided to color your Rebel dials like Imperial and your Imperial dials like Rebels before this, I MIGHT buy that you just HAPPEN to cross-faction mark your Z-95 dials to distinguish them. It would, of course, be complete coincidence that they let you violate the rule you don't like.

Yeah. Sure.

And honestly? Yes. If someone showed up with dials like that I'd probably deny them entry to my events for not having the required components. Someone who'd pull that level of dishonest crap over $30 is someone who really can't contribute anything positive to our play environment.

And what I expect is that every TO who isn't a FFG employee will ignore such an obviously stupid rule. The rule that will matter will be the community consensus on how the rule should be interpreted, not some random person from FFG declaring that you have to spend at least $X to play.

I honestly don't see it as being any different than having to buy a Firespray to get a Stealth Device for your A-wing. There are any number of cases where you buy something you don't want to get a component you need. I don't see this as being any different. So just as we don't allow people to proxy printed upgrades, I'd require the correct components for the correct factions. The fact that you have a similar component with a different face really doesn't change anything.

Of course, watch the dials for the scum versions be different somehow, making the entire discussion totally moot.

And I think they will. To avoid this whole fiasco. They never seemed to be a company that's trying to pull one over on you. In fact they are giving components for ships that aren't even in the pack. And I'm sure that the decision to make the dials unique in movement is not tied into a couple of butt hurt consumers pissed that they feel that a $40 dollar Msrp expansion is so out of line that they'd tarnish the name of a company that has been nothing but supportive of the community and the product.

It would, of course, be complete coincidence that they let you violate the rule you don't like.

And I'm sure it's complete coincidence that you just ignored the part of my post where I explained that the dial modification doesn't let me violate the rule I don't like. The rule I don't like is the one that requres you to buy redundant components, not the rule that I can't have scum symbols on my rebel dials. A rebel dial with a printed copy of the scum dial glued on the front is still a rebel dial that I had to buy.

Someone who'd pull that level of dishonest crap over $30 is someone who really can't contribute anything positive to our play environment.

That's fine, because I wouldn't want to attend your events anyway. Someone who would be such an obsessive {censored} about enforcing "you must spend $X to play" rules that only benefit FFG's profits is someone who really can't contribute anything positive to our play environment.

I honestly don't see it as being any different than having to buy a Firespray to get a Stealth Device for your A-wing.

If you can't see the difference then you aren't looking very hard. In the stealth device example you don't own a stealth device before you buy the Firespray. With the dials you already own the appropriate dial from a functional perspective, the difference is purely aesthetic.

So just as we don't allow people to proxy printed upgrades, I'd require the correct components for the correct factions.

And IMO this is another rule that should not be enforced by anyone who isn't a FFG employee. Assuming the card proxies are accurate copies of the real card the no-proxy rule provides absolutely no benefit to either player. The only benefit is to FFG's profits, and I don't see why anyone who isn't a FFG employee should feel obligated to protect their profits.

But of course this is an entirely separate issue since the dials are all legitimate FFG products.

The fact that you have a similar component with a different face really doesn't change anything.

Except the only difference between the two components is whether or not you paid FFG enough money for them. From a gameplay perspective the two dials are exactly identical and the differences are purely aesthetic. This is the equivalent of arguing that your opponent's tokens aren't legal because they painted the edges of the cardboard black to make them look nicer.

The only logical next step is to quit playing.

I'll give you $5 per model you own.

Jacob

Of course, watch the dials for the scum versions be different somehow, making the entire discussion totally moot.

And I think they will. To avoid this whole fiasco.

The only problem I have with that theory is that, if they were going to do it, I would have expected them to say that the dials are different in the announcement article in order to preempt the debate altogether.