What you fail to understand is that any doctor in his right mind can easily hit and take out a wookie failauder in that one hit.

I think you mean "Any Doctor with the right build", considering they still have to hit (out of Career Melee skill, probably low Brawn) and want to be at Engaged Range with a Marauder (so they'll need decent armor, Soak, and WT of their own).

And if they miss or fail to "one shot" the Marauder... they will be murdered.

Your example is also predicated on it being a Wookiee. My groups Soak Machine was a Trandoshan, his Strain Threshold was 12*. A Gand Marauder would have a much higher Strain (starting with a Soak 7, WT 15, ST 13, Brawn 5, Will 3).

* Sure, your hypothetical madman Doctor would have dropped him, but then your Doctor is dropping most characters. Few PCs are going to get much past the low teens in Strain Threshold (not counting Force Users and Lazersworders).

And your "Just faceroll it with a specced out Doctor" does nothing to address the issue, to wit: What do you do with a drunken Marauder that doesn't also immediately flatten the rest of the party?

Or for that matter my Gand Marauder/Doctor who has 2 ranks of Resolve and a Strain of 15?

Which, I think GMs should let the marauder shine more often than not in combat and not stress out too much about challenging them.

Well, yes, that's what my GM basically started doing. Most fights were "cake walks" for the BH Soak Machine and a bit tough for the rest of us. Every so often he'd cut the BH from the group and run 2 combats simultaneously, or some other semi-contrived scenario, to really push the Soak Machine's limits without overly stressing the whole party.

Overall it "worked", but it was a bit... thin compared to our normal non-FFG SW games.

Again there are a plethora of ways to deal with a high soak character (marauder or otherwise)from pen to minion groups to entangle to disarming with advantages to knockdown and so on and so on. Many (such as knockdown, disarm, and minion groups) don't require you to make a contrived scenario with enemies specially designed to down the marauder. Ie pen weapons are more effective punch wise against high soak characters without bringing that much extra hurt to low soak characters (since excess pen is lost) / minions firing separately have low accuracy and don't hit hard but if they see a big guy/gal running through their shots without being slowed it's justified that they'd combine into a minion group when firing at him/her thus increasing their accuracy and damage again making them effective against the high soak character without harming the rest of the party for that power gain / advantages spent to disarm or slow down the target also don't require contrived equipment or explanations just enemies realizing their shots aren't doing much to slow down the soak bucket and thus spending their advantages to slow the target down occasionally (every round though would be to much, that I agree).

I'm just not seeing why you wouldn't use these options to challenge your players occasionally enough that the soak issue some seem to have would no longer be an issue. Yeah the occasional "who cares let them slaughter it" trash should occur but not so often that your feeling high soak is making all combat a joke to that player.

Hmmm.

Then let me ask a question of everyone who keeps repeating: "Just be a better GM and challenge only the Soak Monkey".

Do you do this with other characters? Do you go out of your way to make Social encounters harder only for the Face? Is it harder to fix things only when the Mechanical Wizard is in the scene? Do things become easier for the other characters who aren't specced for those duties?

Now answer this: If you don't make it easier (IE it's either a static check or you've tailored the numbers for the Best Guy to be doing it), how often does a failed Social encounter end in TPN (Total Party Naptime)? Or a failed Mechanics check? Or a failed Knowledge check?

failauder...

I'm not sure this little portmanteau works quite as well as it could.

Could I suggest perhaps "lamerauder" as an alternative? Or at least keep the "r" sound, for "failrauder".

Try-rauder.

Bore-rauder?

Also, I am now calling all Wookiee Marauders "Fur-rauders"

Hmmm.

Then let me ask a question of everyone who keeps repeating: "Just be a better GM and challenge only the Soak Monkey".

Do you do this with other characters? Do you go out of your way to make Social encounters harder only for the Face? Is it harder to fix things only when the Mechanical Wizard is in the scene? Do things become easier for the other characters who aren't specced for those duties?

Now answer this: If you don't make it easier (IE it's either a static check or you've tailored the numbers for the Best Guy to be doing it), how often does a failed Social encounter end in TPN (Total Party Naptime)? Or a failed Mechanics check? Or a failed Knowledge check?

Do you not make encounters that will be challenging for your face characters even though the rest of the party will not be able to handle them?

There are many ways a player can design their characters that will make it so that certain types of encounters are cakewalks for them even though they would be challenging for the rest of the party. You act like we should never design encounters that are a challenge for that character.

One should design encounters that are challenging for various specialist characters. But one should not do it all the time. One should allow characters to be awesome at what they chose to specialize in most of the time.

I think Daeglan has a good point.

You could definitely argue that R2D2 and C3P0 were members of the party, but they didn't tend to get involved in combat.

R2 would slice the door, and C3P0 would complain or insult someone. Perhaps not the best example, but you see what I mean

Of course it is more conventional in RPGs for the whole party to get involved in a combat, with each of them shooting or attacking in their own ways. But with more creative encounter design and a more open-minded set of players, you could get the PCs doing things that match their skills.

Simon, Kaylee and Wash didn't tend to fight either.

If you're fighting on a construction site, the Mechanic could find forklifts to grab at enemies with. There could be computers that control life support elements or air conditioning. They could vent coolant in the part of the room where the bad guys are, disrupting their attacks. That kinda thing.

You act like we should never design encounters that are a challenge for that character.

You also skipped the second part of the question: Do you set the "fail state" on those Social/Mental encounters as roughly as the fail state for a Combat Encounter?

IE: TPN, Group Captured, Party Dies in Terrible Paper Mache Starship Explosion, etc...

You act like we should never design encounters that are a challenge for that character.

No, I asked a question. Do you always respond hostilely when asked questions?

You also skipped the second part of the question: Do you set the "fail state" on those Social/Mental encounters as roughly as the fail state for a Combat Encounter?

IE: TPN, Group Captured, Party Dies in Terrible Paper Mache Starship Explosion, etc...

That would be because your question is silly and not really helpful to the current discussion.

The Encounter with Luke Skywalker and Jabba is a good example. They tried social. It resulted in combat and capture. But wisely they planned for the capture.

Hmmm.Then let me ask a question of everyone who keeps repeating: "Just be a better GM and challenge only the Soak Monkey".Do you do this with other characters? Do you go out of your way to make Social encounters harder only for the Face? Is it harder to fix things only when the Mechanical Wizard is in the scene? Do things become easier for the other characters who aren't specced for those duties?Now answer this: If you don't make it easier (IE it's either a static check or you've tailored the numbers for the Best Guy to be doing it), how often does a failed Social encounter end in TPN (Total Party Naptime)? Or a failed Mechanics check? Or a failed Knowledge check?

As for encounters with other players in their specialization a that has no relevance, the issue was originally that some people where having trouble making encounters challenging to high soak characters. If any type of encounter be it combat, socializing with traders or underworld, making needed repairs or anything else gets to be point where characters can just stroll right through it with no risk or drama all the time then yes some situations should be made more difficult or the game quickly becomes dull. Not only that it's often not any form of bullying to the special character, if a group minions teams up to take down a high soak character their not then shooting at his allies similarly in a social encounter those your talking to are going to focus on he best talker ie the biggest threat.

I simply don't get you asking for advice on how to deal with high soak and then acting surprised when people say the only way to do so is for the opposition to take on or focus on disabling that threat in a way that doesn't immediately wipe out the rest of the party, it's almost like you asked a question you don't want a reply to.

In short the tank of the group is built and should be treated like the tank of the group. If a weaker player does more damage and becomes a bigger threat than the high soak character then that's on them and they should be prepared to deal with the increased attention that comes as a repercussion. In the end I feel if the players aren't being challenged you're doing something wrong as a gm especially if you willfully choose to ignore the plethora of tools provided to you to present that challenge.

I think Daeglan has a good point.

You could definitely argue that R2D2 and C3P0 were members of the party, but they didn't tend to get involved in combat.

Simon, Kaylee and Wash didn't tend to fight either.

And that's part of the point I'm trying to make. By ignoring the issue of the Soak Machine (Just Be A Better GM LOL) it places those characters in far, far greater jeopardy.

A few bad rolls and the Soak Machine is down, now the party is facing something design to steamroll them.

And how often (I know, Be A Better GM!) should the players just pretend that "all the enemies open fire on the Soak Beast ignoring the softer weaker targets" is fun?

And that ties into the questions I was just asking: When designing Social and Intellectual encounters do you make every one take part? Does Mr. Soak Machine get to safely sit it out? Does the Intellect (presuming they aren't a Face) get to avoid being Social?

Why? Why not?

And then to end: Knowing how dangerous combat is, why make encounters designed to challenge one person but that would destroy everyone else, if you aren't doing the same with non-Combat encounters? Why does the Soak Machine get to safely fail at Smartings and Talkings*, but if the non-Combats were to fail at combat, well, you get the idea.

* For a relative definition of "safely". Every time our Soak Machine failed at "The Talkings" it started combat... but then we also only sent him forward when we a) had no other choice good choice (or more honestly, we just didn't think of a better choice), or b) we fully expected his big dumb mouth** to start a fight.

** The comedy behind this: The player wasn't dumb, his character was dumb. And terrible at talking. So he played it up, always 'talking like the Hulk" ("Hisssk is sad", "Hissk no like!", etc) except when he was sent forward to engage in Charm, or Negotiation, or Deception, or well anything social or intellectual... then he became the height of eloquence and sophistication, and would roll abysmally. And then put his claws into whatever the problem was. After Guardians of the Galaxy came out his only lines were "I am Hisssk", except again, when having to make 'Talky' rolls.

That would be because your question is silly and not really helpful to the current discussion.

I mean I know it's been 5 pages... but seriously man, you were the one who titled it!

Yes, I do understand you meant for this thread to be non-stop "Be A Better GM" advice. Well, that advice is terrible and fails to solve problems.

You know what evileyore. You are not helping. You are being an ass who is not staying on topic. So I am going to solve that problem by ignoring you like I have done with one other person. As your points are not helpful to the current discussion.

Even though I'm of the side that thinks that you don't need to only challenge the soak guy, I think I'll bite on these questions.

Do you do this with other characters? Do you go out of your way to make Social encounters harder only for the Face? Is it harder to fix things only when the Mechanical Wizard is in the scene? Do things become easier for the other characters who aren't specced for those duties?

Actually, yes I do. If I know there's a Face I'll make Social encounters harder. If I know there's a Mechanic I'll make it harder to fix things. Sometimes this feels contrived as well. Such as if a player switches out their character or a new one joins and now the group starts running into issues that the new character is best to handle.

One of the nice parts about EotE is that there are usually several ways around a problem. Have a locked door? Computers to slice it, Skuldugery to pick the lock, or even Mechanics to take the door off its hinges. I can make a challenge for someone who's good at one skill. Say that you have a Slicer in the party but no one knows Skuldugery and you come across the above locked door. If the Slicer tries to slice the door open I might give it a hard difficulty because the door wasn't ment to be sliced open, but if anyone else in the party wants to skuldugery it open it would only be an average difficulty.

Now answer this: If you don't make it easier (IE it's either a static check or you've tailored the numbers for the Best Guy to be doing it), how often does a failed Social encounter end in TPN (Total Party Naptime)? Or a failed Mechanics check? Or a failed Knowledge check?

Usually when a failed non-combat check results in a TPN it's because the non-combat check devolved into combat. Violence seems to been the master key for failed RPG encounters.

I can dream up other reasons for non-combat encounters result in TPN. Try to lie to a Hutt or Imperials and fail? They leave the room to "get the money" and gas the party instead. Ship out of HT and drifting aimlessly through space? If you don't patch those engines and life support you'll get a TPN.

That being said, it seems to be equally contrived for every non-combat encounter to have the threat of being deadly as it would be for every combat encounter to challenge the soak character. Varity is the spice of life. Sometimes you gotta challenge them and sometimes you don't. I would get just as annoyed at a GM who always played to my weaknesses as I would with one who always played to my strengths.

From a pure combat perspective, I'm ok with the high soak characters and don't feel like they need to be extra challenged in combat every fight. Just a handful of times is fine with me. One reason why a high soak character would get to me would be when the metagame comes in. When the player starts making dumb choices because he knows he can waltz in front of a fireing line and come out the other side ok. The other reason is when one character doesn't fit with a party, which is something that can happen in every game. If one character is on a radically different power level it can start to zap the fun away for the group. If the group is cool with having the high soak guy running around and they are having fun, then that's great.

And how often (I know, Be A Better GM!) should the players just pretend that "all the enemies open fire on the Soak Beast ignoring the softer weaker targets" is fun?And that ties into the questions I was just asking: When designing Social and Intellectual encounters do you make every one take part? Does Mr. Soak Machine get to safely sit it out? Does the Intellect (presuming they aren't a Face) get to avoid being social?Why? Why not?

In our games, I play a Jawa mechanic, and in our party we have a combat spec'ed droid. I recognize my limits and appreciate what the other members bring to the party. We just had an encounter where I was manning the gun on a speeder truck, but when we thought we were being ambushed the droid sort of forced his way into the spot, and lit up the first guy. When the five-minion-group of Gamorreans attacked him as the highest-profile target, they critted him (overpowered: attack again) and critted him again immediately, which promptly broke him(it also gave my mechanic something to fix). I am always greatful when opponents overlook the little guy. If my GM was always trying to beat up on my mechanic when we have a combat character who picks fights, I wouldn't enjoy the game as much.

As for avoiding tasks we aren't good at, yes, we get to sit them out. "I know we have a smooth-talking scoundrel who seduces all of the NPCs, but let's make the introverted Jawa try to get the Hutt to pardon us. That clearly makes the most sense."

The PCs with social skills do their thing, the PCs with trade skills do ours, and the combat PCs excell at combat. That way we all get to have fun. Our GM enjoys herself, too. This is the first system she has GM'ed, so it clearly isn't an arcane formula - sorry if you are reading this, honey

Even though I'm of the side that thinks that you don't need to only challenge the soak guy, I think I'll bite on these questions.

Bunch of quality answers

However, and I will kick this ball around once more:

What about non-Combat participation? Does everyone have to be involved? Why? Why not?

(My reasoning being: Combat tends to involve all the PCs, even the non-Combs, to the extant I never just sat out with my combat incompetent Techie, I always found someway to help, even if it was just drawing stun volleys for a round. However I see the tendency to allow the Social and Intellectual inept to sit it out when not faced with combat.)

To answer the question myself: Everyone will be involved in every encounter in some way. Unless they are physically not there, they will be rolling something. Fighty McSoakface will have to roll Cool to not do or say something dumb and make the Face's job harder (and if he rolls well it'll make the Face's job easier with Boost dice!).

I'm not sure how to make the non-Techie help in Tech related issues... but I'll think of something. Probably have them roll some off skill to not do ... something, or hold a part maybe. Eh, I'll figure out at the time, that's what I'm best at.

The other reason is when one character doesn't fit with a party, which is something that can happen in every game. If one character is on a radically different power level it can start to zap the fun away for the group.

The game didn't become "unfun" for us*, but it became ... tiresome. Either combat was a gimme because, Soak Machine! Or it would be really tough. I'm mean really tough, like "We made a poor choice picking a fight with a Star Destroyer" levels of tough (probably because that as a fight we were meant to avoid, and often ended up running away from). Or it was fairly contrived in order to press the Soak Machine but not make it a TPN if he fell.

* It did for the GM, but it wasn't just the combats becoming either a cakewalk or terrible balancing act, he has issues with Narrative systems that have only recently come to light. Though he did keep mentioning the Soak Issue as his reason for wanting to switch to :shudder: d20 Star Wars.

In my opinion, the game is designed to have characters specialize. That's why you work as a team. Not every encounter should involve the whole group. As a GM, part of our job is to create different situations to highlight the different talents of the characters. Not everybody is going to be good at everything, just like real life. So encounters (whether they be social or combat oriented) are geared toward certain PCs. Now, that's not to say you can't add some fun things in so other characters can involve themselves if they so choose. Give the Pilot a bulldozer to run people over with. Wait, is that an access panel that the slicer can rig and close the blast doors? Doctor, are you safely tucked behind something so you can patch us up when we get the crap beat out of us? Then they can help, while the majority of the NPCs focus is on the big guy kicking the tar out of them.

Above all else, make sure you give the little guys some sort of cover behind which they can hide! Out of sight, out of mind and then they won't die! Even if they aren't good at combat, they know they will be able to do something else later in the game.

As for avoiding tasks we aren't good at, yes, we get to sit them out.

I just don't see combat as something anyone can just "sit out".*

I too played a Jawa, total noncombatant, techie and thief (name: T'tal Kl'pto) 1 Brawn, 2 Agility, 0 ranks in combat skills. I spent every combat looking for that "thing I could do to help", be it "fix a downed droid and slap a restraining bolt on it so it fights for our side" to "Don't look at the Rancors Kl'pto, slice the lock...".

* Like wise when I'm running I don't just let characters "sit out" in scenes they're in. They need to at least actively not be doing something counter-productive. Be it a Cool check to stand around not being fidgety, or a Coercion check to loom at all the right times, a Knowledge Underworld/Streetwise check to know who to not make eye contact with/or whom to stare at like it's your job, etc.

At the moment I'm coming up a bit short on Tech related not-important tasks... maybe Vigilance to be a look out, or Brawn to hold a heavy part in place. Still needs thought.

The thing is if you purposely build your character to be useless at combat why would you expect to be useful at combat? I'm not talking building a character whose just not focused but one with low stats in combat relevant stars and 0 ranks in combat skills. This said useful things you could do even in that, the worst possible build for being useful in combat, you can assist (such as laying down covering fire granting a boost die to your more combat centric ally) or attempt to repair a droid (an ally or even one you've bought that is good at combat). You could also do things like try to slice into nearby security systems closing doors between the party and advancing enemies, manipulate existing security systems to wipe cameras that may catch your crime (if that's what's happening) or turn auto turrets on the enemy, etc.

Again a lot of this comes down to your gm, they should be aware of the party composition and looking to provide you with things to do in most situations that fit your strengths.

Using the list like Order 66 handles a lot of this. But this discussion is supposed to be about making challenging encounters for Marauders and other high soak characters without killing the rest of the party. And yet it seems people are just arguing instead of actually designing example encounters or actual useful advice.

Daeglan, sometimes when the light bulb is dim, you just have to throw it away...It can't be repaired or made brighter, it just needs to be tossed out...

As far as advice in encounter design, well the first is have a baddie that can punch through a couple of points of soak. But really, it depends on what you want the outcome to be. If it is combat, then a proven method is team separation. We see that a lot in the movies/cartoons/Firefly. In Ep I, Padme didn't stick around to "help" in the fight with Maul, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. She and her team split off to do their thing and left the Jedi's to do their thing.

You could have the techie of the group get separated/split off to go take out that shield generator/tractor beam while the tank holds down the fort killing 37 minions in 4 combat rounds and he takes a whopping 6 points to WT.

Or in the climax of an adventure, the slicer is slicing against another great slicer, but the the baddie slicer is controlling doors and keeps letting troopers in and the tank has to deal with them while the slicer is trying to shut doors and turn off the mag boot holding the ship down.

If you want to give your tank that "moment to shine" in combat, I feel the need to break the party up if they all can't handle combat well. Also, have the tank get rushed by a couple of melee dudes while the rest of the party is taking out the ones a little further away.

As a my final thought. Yes, the most advice given on this forum to most problems, especially combat encounter problems is "be or get a better GM". Well, that is not bad advice, just not helpful advice. Many people get thrust into the role (or is it roll) of the GM because no one else wants to. Not because they can or should or even they really want to. Other times, it is people who think this is Axis and Allies and it's me versus you. (the worst). I think the this advice is given though because there seems to be a lot of bad GMs out there, not on this forum, I'm talking the gaming world. I know I have played with more GM/DMs once and said I won't be back than I have with ones where I will come back. Also, I'm the guy always getting stuck being the GM in Star Wars, and then that's all we play, so I must be doing something right...

For my final final thought. I like to ramble, wanna' be in my group? Yes, I do expect to have a different difficulty level for social encounters for my Politico than my Tank. Duh! (I am not addressing you Daeglan ) Why wouldn't they be different. It's funny how we always go back to Firefly. In the first episode Mal, Zoe and Jayne are talking with Badger. Jayne says something about why don't you quit standing there in your own pee, and Mal shuts him up, and makes him lower his gun. Talk about adding a setback die and a flipping a Dark Destiny point!!

Anyway, this is the real, real final now. I do agree that it can be very tough to give your Tank a good and tough combat encounter without killing the rest of the guys. But that is their job, not to get hurt in combat. my last adventure I brought in a guy with the rotary gun! that was a pain for them. I barely had him escape in time! I also brought in a Disruptor pistol!! I said I wouldn't but I drank too much...and I did. it was great, they didn't even get hit with it, but now they have it. Oh well.

Well clear skies to ya Daeglan.

Daeglan, my point is you can have tough combat encounters that focus on your war-bot without breaking the narrative. If you have a PC who puts all of his/her XP into combat skills and talents, chances are they WANT the attention of the entire stormtrooper platoon. Likewise, if someone puts very little XP into combat, it probably doesn't interest them as much and they just need a chance to shine in their area of expertise. Similarly, if your Gamorrean with 1 int and 0 in computers wants to try to slice into a CorpSec mainframe, it follows that bad things will happen.

Just because someone plays a doctor and puts a lot of XP into it doesn't mean they will only be grafting limbs and reanimating the dead. When I put a lot of specialization into one area, I enjoy being the go-to guy in those situations and many times that means steam-rolling checks that would stump other characters.

Have you asked your players what is fun for them?

I realize that. The point of this thread is to help others with this particular problem. because people seem to not to get how to handle the problem.

For my final final thought. I like to ramble, wanna' be in my group? Yes, I do expect to have a different difficulty level for social encounters for my Politico than my Tank. Duh! (I am not addressing you Daeglan ) Why wouldn't they be different. It's funny how we always go back to Firefly. In the first episode Mal, Zoe and Jayne are talking with Badger. Jayne says something about why don't you quit standing there in your own pee, and Mal shuts him up, and makes him lower his gun. Talk about adding a setback die and a flipping a Dark Destiny point!!

The Combat Monkey (Jayne) was forced to take part in the Social Encounter*, he blew his Cool check and made things harder for the Social Scoundrel's (Mal) roll, the other Combat Character made her Cool check making the first look really stupid.

And you like to pretend you don't make my points for me!

* And wasn't allowed to just sit it out like so many seem to prefer. Hmmm.

Your example is also predicated on it being a Wookiee. My groups Soak Machine was a Trandoshan, his Strain Threshold was 12*. A Gand Marauder would have a much higher Strain (starting with a Soak 7, WT 15, ST 13, Brawn 5, Will 3).

My Wookiee Marauder meets or exceeds those numbers, with the exception of Will — I haven’t touched that.

Or for that matter my Gand Marauder/Doctor who has 2 ranks of Resolve and a Strain of 15?

My Wookiee Marauder/Heavy/Doctor just recently added his second rank of Resolve as well, in addition to all the extra ranks of Grit that I have taken.

Ironically, combat-wise my Wookiee is far from the most dangerous member of the party. Everyone else is pretty good with ranged weapons, and they do as much or more damage than he does. And I don’t have the highest Soak in the party, either — that belongs to our Two-One-Bee doctor droid who has had a boatload of upgrades that none of the rest of us had known about.

Powerful combat characters can be a problem. Maxed out Marauders are certainly easily capable of meeting that definition. But they aren’t the only thing in the game to worry about, or even just the most dangerous thing in the game to worry about.