Niman Disciple can access FR2 for 130 XP, and uses the same stat for Lightsabers that they use for most force powers. So lets see if this can break the system.

A Zabrak with 50 morality can get a 5 willpower with 20 XP left over. Starting at knight level gives another 150 and a lightsaber.

Spending 130 XP on Nimian Disciple gets you a blue die to social checks, being harder to influence or critical, 1 rank of Reflect, Defensive Training, and FR2. This leaves 40 XP

Move Object requires 25 XP to throw a sillouette 0 object at someone at short range. Another 15 XP in Influence lets you pull a jedi mind trick. Both checks need 1 force pip, and a Discipling skillcheck at YYGGG, and your lightsaber skill is at YGGGG, with the basic blasterparry talent and plenty of strain.

Is this too much? What about different force powers?

Well, this does leave the character very focused. And frankly, that kind of focus can be done with any specialization, such as the Marauder (jack Brawn to 5, ignore the other Characteristics, and just sink XP into the talent tree) and Sharpshooter (jack Agility to 5 and sink XP into talents).

So yeah, it is too much, but then any kind of hyper-focused build is going to be. Heck, I could take a Mirialan, choose Mystic/Seer or Consular/Sage, get Force Rating 2 for a lot cheaper than Niman Disciple, and then max out the Force Powers such as Move or Bind. Again, a very focused character build that's going to be very good at what it's built to do, but not so good when taken outside of that niche.

Truthfully, I'm really not seeing how Niman Disciple is really all that "broken" or really even controversial. About the only concern I have with the spec as it's written is that maybe it's got a rank too many of Parry and Reflect for a Form that's generally noted as being "adequate" for combat. I'm thinking perhaps replace one instance of each with talents that have more of a social/scholarly focus, perhaps one of each to reflect how a Niman Disciple tends to study other fields of interest in contrast to the other Forms requiring more time and effort to master the combat applications of it.

I think it's more a matter that the "focused" Niman Disciple, is still pretty versitile. Basic range defence (especially with a defensive saber), good Strain threshold, basic and fairly reliable range attack out to Short, good melee offence, and decent out of combat utility from influence, all running off a single characteristic that you can pump through the roof.

Yes, a Sage or Seer can almost get FR3 for the price of the Niman's FR2, but they miss out on lightsaber combat (both offensively with the trained skill, and defensively with the ability to turn wounds into strain with deflect)

Truthfully, I'm really not seeing how Niman Disciple is really all that "broken" or really even controversial. About the only concern I have with the spec as it's written is that maybe it's got a rank too many of Parry and Reflect for a Form that's generally noted as being "adequate" for combat. I'm thinking perhaps replace one instance of each with talents that have more of a social/scholarly focus, perhaps one of each to reflect how a Niman Disciple tends to study other fields of interest in contrast to the other Forms requiring more time and effort to master the combat applications of it.

I like this idea. Maybe replace a rank each of Parry and Reflect with Knowledge Specialization and Smooth Talker to bookend nicely with Sage? Could perhaps also find a place to stick in Well Rounded somewhere.

Truthfully, I'm really not seeing how Niman Disciple is really all that "broken" or really even controversial. About the only concern I have with the spec as it's written is that maybe it's got a rank too many of Parry and Reflect for a Form that's generally noted as being "adequate" for combat. I'm thinking perhaps replace one instance of each with talents that have more of a social/scholarly focus, perhaps one of each to reflect how a Niman Disciple tends to study other fields of interest in contrast to the other Forms requiring more time and effort to master the combat applications of it.

I like this idea. Maybe replace a rank each of Parry and Reflect with Knowledge Specialization and Smooth Talker to bookend nicely with Sage? Could perhaps also find a place to stick in Well Rounded somewhere.

I was thinking a rank of Researcher and either Well-Rounded or another Nobody's Fool myself.

Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Researcher, but my GM rarely uses Knowledge skills at all, and when he does, it's rare that success is valuable, and he's not very good about adding Setbacks to checks consistently. I feel like the ranks of Knowledge Specialization and Researcher that I had to pick up on the way to the two Force Ratings in Sage were largely wasted XP, but of the two, I'd vote for Knowledge Spec, as it actually does something.

Hmm...Well-Rounded vs. Nobody's Fool. That's tough. Both fit, and it would be nice to be able to pick up a second rank of the latter without having to go into an off-career specialization. What about including the both of those and skipping the Knowledge/Researcher bit?

Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Researcher, but my GM rarely uses Knowledge skills at all, and when he does, it's rare that success is valuable, and he's not very good about adding Setbacks to checks consistently. I feel like the ranks of Knowledge Specialization and Researcher that I had to pick up on the way to the two Force Ratings in Sage were largely wasted XP, but of the two, I'd vote for Knowledge Spec, as it actually does something.

I assume you may have tried this before, but you could try expressing how you feel about his/her handling of knowledges/setbacks. He/she might not even realize there's a problem.

Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Researcher, but my GM rarely uses Knowledge skills at all, and when he does, it's rare that success is valuable, and he's not very good about adding Setbacks to checks consistently. I feel like the ranks of Knowledge Specialization and Researcher that I had to pick up on the way to the two Force Ratings in Sage were largely wasted XP, but of the two, I'd vote for Knowledge Spec, as it actually does something.

I assume you may have tried this before, but you could try expressing how you feel about his/her handling of knowledges/setbacks. He/she might not even realize there's a problem.

Many times.

He's gotten a little better about Setbacks, and I've pushed for the players to propose both Setbacks and Boosts in order to "spread the load" as it were, but it's rare for anyone but me to do that.

As for Knowledge...it's been a problem for 10 years...from back in D&D 3.5. Either we're told that the knowledge is impossible (he's gotten a little better at this since I impressed upon him the idea of "Yes, but" rather than "No"), or he just gives the information being sought without a roll being required. Occasionally, it falls in the middle where we roll, and get some info, but that's often not even very useful stuff.

I'd love to play in a game with a GM that uses a different style. I'd consider running one, but I've got an ongoing Pathfinder game I'm focused on. Another friend is planning on running an Edge game sometime soon...we'll see how that goes. He hasn't spent a lot of time "behind the screen."

I think they should keep the defensive lightsaber talents in Niman.

It is a lightsaber form Specialization and it already has non-lightsaber/non-combat talents in it.

And more defensive power does fit the Consular.

I think they should keep the defensive lightsaber talents in Niman.

It is a lightsaber form Specialization and it already has non-lightsaber/non-combat talents in it.

And more defensive power does fit the Consular.

True, but it shouldn't be almost as defensive as Soresu Defender, which is THE Defensive Form. Heck, it's got more Parry's and Deflects than Shien Expert, which is supposed to be all about turning attacks back on the attacker (with the inference that it too is a defensive form).

Niman is a diplomatic, generalized lightsaber form. Niman isn't supposed to be great at anything. It's a solid evolution of lightsaber combat, incorporating a lot of basics together to provide the Jedi with a solid lightsaber technique but allow time for the Jedi to study other matters (research, diplomacy, etc). It incorporates a lot of Force use into it's moves as a sort of compensating factor for it's general bladework.

Currently, Niman is a Great Lightsaber form. I think the amount of Parry and Reflect talents is making that so. The double tap of Defensive Training talents is another bump.

Hmmm...some of those talents are buried pretty deep, though, like that 10 xp parry that you have to go through several 15 point talents to get to. Masters of Niman are supposed to be brutally effective (like Exar Kun). Maybe some tree-branch changes could work; like breaking the link between Reflect and Defensive Training in the 3rd row. Now to get those two defensive talents, you have to go through some 20 point talents.

I think they should keep the defensive lightsaber talents in Niman.

It is a lightsaber form Specialization and it already has non-lightsaber/non-combat talents in it.

And more defensive power does fit the Consular.

True, but it shouldn't be almost as defensive as Soresu Defender, which is THE Defensive Form. Heck, it's got more Parry's and Deflects than Shien Expert, which is supposed to be all about turning attacks back on the attacker (with the inference that it too is a defensive form).

Niman is a diplomatic, generalized lightsaber form. Niman isn't supposed to be great at anything. It's a solid evolution of lightsaber combat, incorporating a lot of basics together to provide the Jedi with a solid lightsaber technique but allow time for the Jedi to study other matters (research, diplomacy, etc). It incorporates a lot of Force use into it's moves as a sort of compensating factor for it's general bladework.

Currently, Niman is a Great Lightsaber form. I think the amount of Parry and Reflect talents is making that so. The double tap of Defensive Training talents is another bump.

Hmmm...some of those talents are buried pretty deep, though, like that 10 xp parry that you have to go through several 15 point talents to get to. Masters of Niman are supposed to be brutally effective (like Exar Kun). Maybe some tree-branch changes could work; like breaking the link between Reflect and Defensive Training in the 3rd row. Now to get those two defensive talents, you have to go through some 20 point talents.

I was mostly responding to the suggestion that seemed to be made that lightsaber forms should be more "pure" and hyper-focus even more on their particular specialty.

My larger point is that each form should offer expertise in what are basic lightsaber abilities for those who bother to actually get any depth in training - like Reflect, Parry, etc.

I'd be fine if they toned down how much Reflect and Parry Niman got but would prefer they got replaced with other lightsaber centric talents.

I think they should keep the defensive lightsaber talents in Niman.

It is a lightsaber form Specialization and it already has non-lightsaber/non-combat talents in it.

And more defensive power does fit the Consular.

True, but it shouldn't be almost as defensive as Soresu Defender, which is THE Defensive Form. Heck, it's got more Parry's and Deflects than Shien Expert, which is supposed to be all about turning attacks back on the attacker (with the inference that it too is a defensive form).

Given the way Improved Parry and Improved Reflect work, shouldnt Shien be more about upgrading attack difficulties and adding black dice? They need ranks of Dodge, Sidestep and defensive stance, not parry.

Given the way Improved Parry and Improved Reflect work, shouldnt Shien be more about upgrading attack difficulties and adding black dice? They need ranks of Dodge, Sidestep and defensive stance, not parry.

Yeah, there really isn't much in there to increase the possibility of Threat or Despair. Maybe at least turn one of the Reflects on the Shien-side of the tree into a Dodge?

Ach, but now we're off topic...

I don't think each of the trees should be hyper specialized, but I also think they should be careful with making them too well-rounded by themselves. I think you're intended to blend selections of the different trees together to get the offense, defense, and utility you want. Not necessarily just fill one tree and you have everything you need/want and you're done. There need to be compelling options available and difficult choices to be made about which talents to get. There are multiple ranked talents that have just 1 rank located in trees by themselves but are contained in multiple trees, but by combining pieces of two or more different trees you can develop interesting and useful synergy. I like the themes of the individual lightsaber trees, but I think it's possible to get too caught up in the "in lore this lightsaber combat form exemplifies _____, so it needs to be the master of all things _____, and contain everything to do with ____" mindset.

There's nothing wrong with the Niman tree. It's good in a generalist way thanks to Parry and Reflect, but lacks any of the improved talents that give the more specialized defense trees their oomph. It lacks almost any frills whatsoever, which I feel makes up for having good passives. If I wanted to play a Jedi who was out to mess up someone else's day, I would look elsewhere from Niman; the Niman tree feels more to me like it belongs with a Jedi who isn't looking to pick a fight and just wants to be good enough with a lightsaber to not be anyone's chump if they get jumped.

Given the way Improved Parry and Improved Reflect work, shouldnt Shien be more about upgrading attack difficulties and adding black dice? They need ranks of Dodge, Sidestep and defensive stance, not parry.

Yeah, there really isn't much in there to increase the possibility of Threat or Despair. Maybe at least turn one of the Reflects on the Shien-side of the tree into a Dodge?

Ach, but now we're off topic...

Well, if going by remarks in the thread discussing possible revisions to Parry and Reflect, it would seem that you're supposed be using thlngs like Sense's defensive Control Upgrade to force your opponent to be rolling Challenge dice. So by those comments, if your chosen LS Form tree doesn't offer talents to upgrade your attacker's difficulty, you should just suck it up and buy into specs that do.

Now I don't hold to that one bit, as I feel it's unfair to a character to all but require them to purchase additional talents just to get a talent they've purchased to actually work more than once in a blue moon. But again, a topic for a different thread.

Given the way Improved Parry and Improved Reflect work, shouldnt Shien be more about upgrading attack difficulties and adding black dice? They need ranks of Dodge, Sidestep and defensive stance, not parry.

Yeah, there really isn't much in there to increase the possibility of Threat or Despair. Maybe at least turn one of the Reflects on the Shien-side of the tree into a Dodge?

Ach, but now we're off topic...

Well, if going by remarks in the thread discussing possible revisions to Parry and Reflect, it would seem that you're supposed be using thlngs like Sense's defensive Control Upgrade to force your opponent to be rolling Challenge dice. So by those comments, if your chosen LS Form tree doesn't offer talents to upgrade your attacker's difficulty, you should just suck it up and buy into specs that do.

Now I don't hold to that one bit, as I feel it's unfair to a character to all but require them to purchase additional talents just to get a talent they've purchased to actually work more than once in a blue moon. But again, a topic for a different thread.

Which is why I feel that Shien experts will be dipping into Bodyguard for Sidestepx2 and Defensive Stancex2.

Given the way Improved Parry and Improved Reflect work, shouldnt Shien be more about upgrading attack difficulties and adding black dice? They need ranks of Dodge, Sidestep and defensive stance, not parry.

Yeah, there really isn't much in there to increase the possibility of Threat or Despair. Maybe at least turn one of the Reflects on the Shien-side of the tree into a Dodge?

Ach, but now we're off topic...

Well, if going by remarks in the thread discussing possible revisions to Parry and Reflect, it would seem that you're supposed be using thlngs like Sense's defensive Control Upgrade to force your opponent to be rolling Challenge dice. So by those comments, if your chosen LS Form tree doesn't offer talents to upgrade your attacker's difficulty, you should just suck it up and buy into specs that do.

Now I don't hold to that one bit, as I feel it's unfair to a character to all but require them to purchase additional talents just to get a talent they've purchased to actually work more than once in a blue moon. But again, a topic for a different thread.

Which is why I feel that Shien experts will be dipping into Bodyguard for Sidestepx2 and Defensive Stancex2.

But should they have to do that just to get semi-reliable use of one of the core talents of their specialization?

It's one thing to say "Hey, if you grab this particularly specialization, it synergizes real nice with your core specialization," but something else to say "Hey, if you want to get any kind use of those major talents in your core specialization, you'll have to pony up a bunch of XP and take these other non-career specializations."

Which as DarthGM said, is a topic for another thread.

The only thing vaguely controversial that I can see is the Force rating boost, which makes sense, given the description of the form. Anyone playing a character focusing purely on one thing is going to end up bored when the focus isn't on them, or dead when they can't do something that's needed. And yes, as a GM, I have had almost TPK because everyone was a specialist, and nobody had the ability to do one thing. Of course, this was because they planned the characters poorly, and the sessions rapidly became the "Who's character is better?" show. The survivors of that game are the core of my current gaming group. I was sort of proud of how they threw the others under that bus.