One last reply, quicklike:

@Enoch52:

I'm not clear on what more you feel a starting character should have. For my tastes, I want my players (and when I'm playing, I want my character) to start hungry. If I'm playing a young merc eager to make his mark on the galaxy, give me a blaster and an attitude; the rest I'll earn or take.

The second experimental character I made was a doctor. I conceptualized him as a just-out-of-med-school newbie who had the misfortune to have an underworld figure's child die under his care. Crime boss, in a fit of grief and rage, blames my character for the death, and sends various murder hobos after him. He, in turn, flees to the Outer Rim to stay one step ahead of his pursuers while eking out a hardscrabble existence treating the bumps, bruises, and blaster wounds afflicting other fringe-dwellers. Cue fanfare, roll opening crawl.

I hardly expect this guy to start play with a mid-sized arsenal and a fully-tricked-out medbay at his disposal. Rather, I think he'd have a medpac (the Star Wars equivalent of a physician's bag) to do his job, a small gun (a light or hold-out blaster) that he keeps under his pillow in case trouble finds him, and a couple of other inexpensive odds and ends like a comlink and a hand scanner. I don't think that's an unreasonable quantity of starting gear that somehow violates the "keep them hungry" principle.

But I can't buy all that with just 500 credits. Either my character takes the medpac (in which case he's underequipped for everything but his job), or the gun and the other odds and ends (in which case he's underequipped for his job), or he takes more Obligation (in which case the cranky crime boss is a bigger and more urgent problem than I'm necessarily comfortable with).

@bradknowles: Erm. I think you missed some context there. I wasn't arguing that the EotE mechanics are immersion-busting (I'm still trying to get a bead on them; I wouldn't know). I was making a more general point that narratives need to be sustained by mechanics.

Insofar as that statement goes, I agree. However, there is a wide degree of latitude available to you in the FFG SWRPG system, depending on how you narrate things.

The GM can narratively position the PCs as Big **** Heroes all he likes, but if players don't feel like their characters are capable of doing things they think Big **** Heroes ought to be capable of, their confidence in the narrative positioning is going to die a pretty quick death. At least, that's been my experience; YMMV.

By far, the most exciting things that have happened in our Thursday night game have come from situations where a player says "I’m going to do X", the GM doesn’t believe that’s physically possible so he makes him do it against a Formidable check, and then the son-of-a-bit*h goes and actually somehow manages to roll his two dice against all those purple dice and yet still succeeds. And it’s not like he’s lying to us about what the dice are showing, because we can see his roll.

So, a Duros with little additional skill in Stealth and only average Attributes somehow manages to sneak up behind a Hutt (and all his best minions of various sorts), take a Droid power core and set it on overload, and the bloody thing blows up like a bigger version of a Thermal Detonator and vaporizes the Hutt and all his goons?!? You can do that on a pair of Triumphs and blanks on all the purple dice?

I don’t care how "Cool" General Solo is, he’s not going to have the brass balls to pull off something like that. Okay, so advanced Jedi Padawan Skywalker is willing to take on a Hutt, but not without a hell of a lot of backup. This **** bloody Duros just waltzes in and toasts the big bad guy all by himself?!?

And yet, our biggest bag of Awesome has come from what happens when someone actually fails a roll, and we get to try to figure out how to role-play that in a Cinematic way.

Don’t underestimate just how "Heroic" the PCs can be, even if they do have only one or two dice to throw around for some particular action. If you tell the story right, and you balance the foes against the PCs properly, you can make almost anything "Heroic".

Also, soccer? Not the best example to use with me, as I find the sport about as exciting as watching paint dry. :-) How about I pretend you said ice hockey instead, and agree?

Fair enough.

i think your fear of obligation is a little inflated. It really does not have that big of a mechanical effect. When it is rolled the GM should try and work it into the existing story. You are making a bigger deal of having more obligation than people have experienced.

The second experimental character I made was a doctor.

Yeah, doctors are tough. That’s an area where I think the game system could use a little tweaking.

On the one hand, you can get a hell of a lot of good healing from stimpacks, which are cheap. So, early on in a campaign I don’t see a doctor actually being of that much use as a PC. Later, the doctor actually gets pretty decent after you pump some XP into him, but by that point the rest of the party can probably afford to buy multiple ships with bacta tanks and a whole bunch of 21B droids and then how much use is the doctor again?

OTOH, it’s hard to properly equip the doctor without spending more money than should be necessary. There are some less expensive versions of some equipment available in some of the expansion books, like the CDEF Blaster Pistol for 150 cr, but it’s still hard. What kills me is that the best medpack in the game (outside of Far Horizons) is the CAPC ECM-598 Medical Backpack and it costs only 50 cr more than the standard basic medpack.

So, for me, doctor is not really well suited for being the primary profession of a PC, although it makes an excellent second or third specialization — if nothing else, two ranks of Resolve and two ranks of Grit can be very handy, and that Dedication comes pretty cheap.

I think Far Horizons changes a lot of things for doctors, but I don’t know if it changes them by enough to make it a good primary occupation for a PC.

I don't see anywhere in the book recommending increasing your characteristics, only telling you how you can.

Page 15 left hand column bold print.

"Players need to think carefully about their characteristic ratings, and should consider investing a significant portion of their starting experience points in improving their characteristics"

Huh. Never saw that. I stand corrected. Seems strange as I really don't see it as a problem not to do this, even long-term.

The second experimental character I made was a doctor. I conceptualized him as a just-out-of-med-school newbie who had the misfortune to have an underworld figure's child die under his care. Crime boss, in a fit of grief and rage, blames my character for the death, and sends various murder hobos after him. He, in turn, flees to the Outer Rim to stay one step ahead of his pursuers while eking out a hardscrabble existence treating the bumps, bruises, and blaster wounds afflicting other fringe-dwellers. Cue fanfare, roll opening crawl.

I hardly expect this guy to start play with a mid-sized arsenal and a fully-tricked-out medbay at his disposal. Rather, I think he'd have a medpac (the Star Wars equivalent of a physician's bag) to do his job, a small gun (a light or hold-out blaster) that he keeps under his pillow in case trouble finds him, and a couple of other inexpensive odds and ends like a comlink and a hand scanner. I don't think that's an unreasonable quantity of starting gear that somehow violates the "keep them hungry" principle.

But I can't buy all that with just 500 credits. Either my character takes the medpac (in which case he's underequipped for everything but his job), or the gun and the other odds and ends (in which case he's underequipped for his job), or he takes more Obligation (in which case the cranky crime boss is a bigger and more urgent problem than I'm necessarily comfortable with).

You just created a perfectly good match for Obligation in your background and then finished your post by saying you didn't want to use Obligation!

I'll describe how that Obligation would work in my game and see if you like / dislike it. Depending on size of the party lets say your character begins with 20 Obligation after you've spent a little extra to get your 1,500Cr starting funds. So the character has a one in five chance of it triggering. If it does, your character will be suffering a couple of Strain and everyone else in the party one point of Strain because your character is edgy all the time and keeps looking out of the window, snapping at people or whatever. Mechanically these few points are not a big deal though the situation adds immersion. Maybe as GM I have someone from the crime lord's entourage who the PC vaguely met once or twice. Your character has changed a little since he went on the run - no longer the smartly dressed, neatly shaven professional he was. So the stranger isn't sure if this bushy fringer is the same Doc or not, but he's suspicious and starts following your character trying to be sure. Now in addition to the normal adventure, there's a small sub-plot where they have to deal with this nosy stranger asking questions. I see that less as the GM punishing the characters which is how you have mostly been viewing it, and more just part of the adventure that increases immersion and adds a fun tangent to it.

Anyway, that's what would happen in my game.

@knasserII: I admit to perhaps being unduly terrified of those strain penalties. All I can offer in my defense is that I just hate being That Guy whose characters' flaws create problems for the rest of the group.

@knasserII: I admit to perhaps being unduly terrified of those strain penalties. All I can offer in my defense is that I just hate being That Guy whose characters' flaws create problems for the rest of the group.

Well with five players and roughly equal Obligation, there's an 80% chance you'll be on the receiving end of someone else's problems.

It's part of the game, tbh, deliberately so and it helps tie a team together once you've gotten mixed up in each others' messy histories once or twice. As the saying goes: "Real friends help you hide the bodies."

@knasserII: I admit to perhaps being unduly terrified of those strain penalties. All I can offer in my defense is that I just hate being That Guy whose characters' flaws create problems for the rest of the group.

If you are doing things right in most games everyone is creating problems for everyone else. that is what adds depth to characters.

Real characters are flawed. Look at a New hope. Hans obligation was too much for him and he bailed then Chewie talked him down and he came back. In Empire Lukes obligation to Ben had him going off to Dagobah rather than sticking with his friends.

In Return of the Jedi his Obligation had Luke running off to face Vader...

It's part of the game, tbh, deliberately so and it helps tie a team together once you've gotten mixed up in each others' messy histories once or twice. As the saying goes: "Real friends help you hide the bodies."

Exactly. It's even more entertaining when the players start coming up with suggestions to 'help' one another with their obligations...

centerfire, there are also ways to justify why your Doctor character doesn't have a medpack in the very first adventure. Perhaps he was helping heal somebody on a planet when a bounty hunter showed up. He just barely escaped, but left behind some of his gear.

If I were your GM, you'd find you wouldn't have much trouble locating or purchasing a new medpack within an adventure or two.

But I can't buy all that with just 500 credits. Either my character takes the medpac (in which case he's underequipped for everything but his job), or the gun and the other odds and ends (in which case he's underequipped for his job), or he takes more Obligation (in which case the cranky crime boss is a bigger and more urgent problem than I'm necessarily comfortable with).

I can certainly understand the desire for just a little more starting gear. I agree that starting Edge characters can feel a bit like PCs from the start of Fallout 1 (if you've played it). If it helps you feel more at ease, giving out an extra 500 -1000 credits really doesn't hurt the game, provided you veto dangerous/rare/illegal gear (like the aforementioned disruptors). My personal method is to create equipment "packages" to suit a particular role, with each package having an equal credit value, a little under whatever credit total I'm giving out.

@knasserII: I admit to perhaps being unduly terrified of those strain penalties. All I can offer in my defense is that I just hate being That Guy whose characters' flaws create problems for the rest of the group.

To be honest, strain is something that comes and goes and there are many ways to recover from strain loss, so the lowered strain threshold from obligation shouldn't be that much of a hardship. Lets be honest here, on average characters are going to have approximately 12, barring increased Willpower characteristic or purchased Talents, and a loss of one or two points is not actually that big a deal.

Personally I have mostly ignored the strain threshold part of the obligation mechanic for two reasons; firstly because most of my Star Wars games of late have been con games, and secondly because I find that specific part of the mechanic a little forced. I understand the intent but I find the strain threshold reduction feels too meta for me. I tend to use obligation partly as backdrop for the characters, something for them to have fun with, but also as a way of having their character more a part of the Galaxy at large.

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@knasserII: I think my reluctance comes from HERO. You kind of expect a certain amount of disadvantage "bleed-over" when you're in a party -- we're all living and working together, so one person's problems are everybody's problems to some degree -- but after the fourth or fifth time you get enlisted to help rescue somebody else's DNPC, you start to get grumbly. And if it's your DNPC that needs all that rescuing, you start to want to drown him in the bathtub.

@knasserII: I think my reluctance comes from HERO. You kind of expect a certain amount of disadvantage "bleed-over" when you're in a party -- we're all living and working together, so one person's problems are everybody's problems to some degree -- but after the fourth or fifth time you get enlisted to help rescue somebody else's DNPC, you start to get grumbly. And if it's your DNPC that needs all that rescuing, you start to want to drown him in the bathtub.

I'm just going to say I get the impression you have a very different approach to roleplaying than I do.

@progressions:

centerfire, there are also ways to justify why your Doctor character doesn't have a medpack in the very first adventure. Perhaps he was helping heal somebody on a planet when a bounty hunter showed up. He just barely escaped, but left behind some of his gear.

If I were your GM, you'd find you wouldn't have much trouble locating or purchasing a new medpack within an adventure or two.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's impossible to think up reasons why my character wouldn't have that stuff. Yours is a good one; "I was mugged!" is also a tried-and-true favorite.

You can justify almost anything. All I'm saying is that some things, you really shouldn't have to. :-)

I'm just going to say I get the impression you have a very different approach to roleplaying than I do.

Really? The fourth or fifth time Amazing Man comes and begs for the team's help saving his dear old Aunt Esther from the clutches of Doctor Malignant, your character's natural human reaction wouldn't be, "Good Lord, AGAIN?!?" And if you were playing Amazing Man, you wouldn't be getting even a little embarrassed about asking?

Anyway. Tangency. :-)

If my GM was lame, perhaps I might.

Obligation is designed to ebb and flow. And part of the point is that maybe the GM running the game isn't a stupid idiot or a lame person with no imagination. The same goes for the players.

I don't think any of these things you're mentioning are technical or mechanical problems with the system. At least, they haven't been in the games I've either run as a GM or played in.

I really would just recommend trying the system out with a GM who is bright and creative and not a dullard whose intent is to bore the players to death to achieve a TPK.

I'm just going to say I get the impression you have a very different approach to roleplaying than I do.

Really? The fourth or fifth time Amazing Man comes and begs for the team's help saving his dear old Aunt Esther from the clutches of Doctor Malignant, your character's natural human reaction wouldn't be, "Good Lord, AGAIN?!?" And if you were playing Amazing Man, you wouldn't be getting even a little embarrassed about asking?

Anyway. Tangency. :-)

I wasnt sure if you were trolling or genuinely concerned, before this piece de resistance.

You seem far more concerned with finding flaws, than finding ways, like the doctor without a gun, Ohh noes..

9/10 doctors does infact not have a gun, they tend to be focused on healing, not killing.

Or the Bountyhunter that focused so broadly that he is useless at everything, clever job if you wanna play Gimp.

And you know, and I know you know, its not a single player game, yet you pretend it is, untill you you find a flawbit that can be highlighted as a massive drawback to a group, that youre not in, cause whou would really wanna play with trolls ?

I'm just going to say I get the impression you have a very different approach to roleplaying than I do.

Really? The fourth or fifth time Amazing Man comes and begs for the team's help saving his dear old Aunt Esther from the clutches of Doctor Malignant, your character's natural human reaction wouldn't be, "Good Lord, AGAIN?!?" And if you were playing Amazing Man, you wouldn't be getting even a little embarrassed about asking?

Anyway. Tangency. :-)

I'm not familiar with Hero but I read DNPC as some secondary character or dependent that you're supposed to protect. Just to note, you can get your Obligation down so by the time you've saved Aunt Esther a couple of times I would imagine that story is done and she's safe. Though it really doesn't match up with how Obligation works very well anyway. Go back to my example earlier - it wasn't 'Game stops and everyone has to go on your mission', it was 'this complication to the story has just arisen'. A very different thing. In fact the book outright tells you that if you run it like your example you're doing it wrong. It's also a lot more variable than your DNPC sounds as it shifts around, can change its nature... It's a pretty dynamic thing.

Anyway, I think I'm done here, no offence. This entire thread has been you posting a supposed criticism (often a misconception) and when answered, that answer argued against or another criticism found. I'm just going to go back to my earlier post and say it's not our job to sell you on it and leave it there. You have enough answers to play the game if you want to. We all enjoy it and I hope you do too if you ever play it. But this thread has gone beyond the point of being useful, imo. You may not be trolling as Zio has stated (though you could be), but intentionally or not this thread is basically you challenging people to prove to you that the game is not broken.

I agree. I apologize to the world and everyone in it for continuing to engage in this thread.

The beginning characters from EOE/AOR are meant to be just that. Beginners people either just starting out in the Fringe, or having just joined the Alliance and finished Alliance training., Think of them as being just out of college, military training or medical, flight, and trade school if they had such schooling and didn't just learn by doing

If you want to play a more seasoned character, like the topic creator obviously does, then talk to your GM and the other players. If they are willing you could easily add 50 to 200 extra XP or more to everyone's XP pool though I would personally put a strict limit on how much of the extra xp, if any, is allowed to be spent on Attributes rather then Skills, Specializations, and Talents.

I agree that the 500 starting credits worth of gear and money does seem a little light though. Personally I believe this represents best a character who was either always poor, had a run of bad luck (Gambling losses, lawsuit losses, fines of some kind, or just the Empire or some level of government, or perhaps a criminal agency seizing or destroying most of the characters assets, and possessions are all good options), or perhaps spent almost all of their money on education, or getting away from their home and past.

Again talk to the GM and players if they are willing you can easily add 500 to 1000 credits or more to everyone's starting pool and still offer extra obligation to those who want more. And if a player doesn't want the extra credits because they feel that only having 500 credits worth of gear fits their character you could offer to give them more XP in place of the extra credits (The main EOE/AOR GM of our group uses a 5 credits to 1 XP exchange rate)

And since the Topic Creator is the GM in this case all he needs to do is come up with a plan for how many extra XP and credits to give his players when they start out then talk it over with them.I doubt there will be many of them who feel that the only way their character concept will work is if they only have basic beginning XP, and 500 credits worth of gear.

Finally I don't find the idea of a doctor owning a gun in a setting like Star Wars very odd. Especially a doctor who is part of the Alliance or working on a new colony, or somewhere in the shadier parts of the Star Wars Galaxy

oh a side note on giving extra XP. Always build the character per the rules. then when finished follow the normal character advancement rules with the bonus XP. No buying a bunch of attributes up with that XP,

Oh, for the love of...

@knasserII: I read your example. I grasp, fully, that Obligation is not a "drop everything and deal with backstory or you get stabbed in the face by the game designers" mechanic. I was not trying to draw a direct comparison between it and a HERO system disadvantage. I was simply trying to explain, with some humor and some hyperbole, why I, personally, without the benefit of direct experience, might come across as unduly cautious about taking on more Obligation: it appears to complicate other PCs' lives, and I don't like being the source of an abundance of such complications.

But if you guys are going to read every single thing I write as a dismissal of your reassurances and a criticism of the precious, then yes, it's probably best that we drop this. I'll just thank you for your contributions to this point.

@zio: No, I'm not trolling. Yes, I probably am more concerned with finding flaws than finding ways, because games are expensive and I don't want to invest in one that I'll have to perform a lot of patchwork on in order to enjoy it. I started this thread because I want to like this game, but based on what I was reading I was fearful that it was one of those. Lots of people have told me I'm wrong. Some of them have gone to the trouble of explaining why, and I've tried to express my gratitude for that. I'm not yet 100% convinced, but I'm much less anxious than I was four days ago, to the point that I'm (gasp!) exploring the idea of trying it out. But if you think that an armed doctor is a ludicrous concept in a fringe-based Star Wars game 9 times out of 10, I'm not sure what to tell you.

A armed doctor is not a ludicrous concept. And to get what you want it costs 5 obligation. which really is not a big deal. I do think you will like the system. It is by no means broken. It does not really need any house ruling that I have seen. I am playing in 3 different games by 3 different GMs and none found the need to house rule stuff. One of them we started off with 150 additional XP. I have seen people run games with people who have varying levels of XP and the characters meshed just fine.