For those who haven't seen them yet, the full Shadows rules have been posted online here .

As far as I can tell from the rules, it looks like a unique Shadows character cannot be duplicated without paying its full cost and going through the Shadows area first (for each duplicate). That surprises me, and I'm not sure I understand why the rules would be so. Does anyone else have a different interpretation of the rules?

I'm able to read it much the way you are as well. The only other explanation is that it's saying it the way it is, so you can optionally choose to play duplicates in that manner to trigger "when a card comes out of shadows" effects (like on Tyrion).

I'd really like to see it clarified or changed so that dupes can be played directly. I don't want to have to pay 4G to give Tyrion a save 99% of the time if I dont want to, and I don't see where there would be any abusive elements in allowing the free dupe either.

I read it differently.

I assume that the following part of the Shadows rules document is the one in question?

"(Shadows) cards must first be marshalled into Shadows, and then brought into
play from Shadows at the appropriate time. (Shadows) cards cannot be marshalled
directly into play."

This passage obviously says that you cannot, for example, pay 4 gold and play Tyrion directly. He must pass through Shadows, which will have a huge effect on your resource curve (since there are currently no reducers for putting cards into or out of Shadows - although the rules document heavily implies there are some coming). But I don't see the "Shadows cards cannot be marshalled directly" rule as stopping you from duping a card already in play.

Remember that a dupe is considered a card without text, title or trait. For example, when you dupe Eddard Stark, you are not considered to have played/marshaled a Lord or a Noble character and could not Respond as such. You simply marshaled a duplicate. Same thing here. The rules say that Shadows cards must first be marshaled into Shadows, but when you duplicate a unique, you are not marshaling a Shadows card (any more than when you dupe Eddard, you would be marshaling a Noble).

So my understanding of dupes as textless, titleless, traitless cards with no card type other than "duplicate" would make this particular rule inapplicable to marshaling duplicates, even if the card has a Shadows crest printed on it.

Nope, its that passage in combination with this one:

"If another copy of a unique card that you own and control is in play, you still may bring the card out of Shadows by paying its cost. However, the card immediately attaches to its copy as a duplicate."

But I see that as simply a possible alternative way of bringing shadows duplicates into play. That's what I'm hoping anyway.

RJM said:

That's exactly what it is. Bringing a card out of Shadows is a type of "put into play" effect. It's like Gates of Winterfell allowing you to dupe uniques. The "put into play" should be a separate way of duping a card.

ktom said:

If I dupe a unique by bringing the second copy out of the shadows, can I respond to it as a card that comes into play? In other words, does this function like one of the ambushing hatchlings, which will attach to a 5KE dragon but also triggers their response? Would a dupe that comes out of shdows send Queen's Knight back to hand or trigger shadow Tyrion's response?

Separately, can I use "On Raven's Wings" to bring shadow cards into play? (My guess is no.)

By the way, I read the new rules the same way RJM did--that you can only dupe shadow uniques by paying for their whole cost and then attaching them as a dupe after they come out of shadows. I trust Ktom's ruling, but it might be nice to have a definitive ruling from FFG so if this issue comes up in tournaments Night's Watch/judges have an official ruling to point back to.

Twn2dn said:

Sort of. With the Ambush Hatchlings, a character comes into play and a passive effect turns them into dupes. So a character did come into play and that's what you deal with as far as passives and Responses.

However, with "put into play" effects like Gates of Winterfell or coming out of Shadows, the character does not enter play and then become a dupe (that would violate the rules on unique). The card comes into play as a dupe. A card still came out of Shadows (so you could Respond with Tyrion), but a dupe, not a character, came into play (so Queen's Knight would not be bounced). Make sense?

Twn2dn said:

I'd actually say "yes." The rules only stop you from Marshalling Shadows characters directly into play. They don't say anything about other, separate "put into play" effects not working on Shadows cards. In fact, since they specifically bothered to mention that the printed cost of "s2" should be treated as 4 instead of 2, I'd guess Nate considered ORW and similar effects.

I was curious, for my own satisfaction, to see if the rules define the verb "to marshal." To my surprise, I found the term undefined in all the older rules that I have available (Winter, ITE, 5KE), although it was used without definition in the Legacy FAQ. Maybe it's something that everybody just "knew" even though it wasn't defined in print.

But I finally found a definition in the core set rules: to marshal = "play cards from [your] hand to the play area by paying the printed gold cost on the card." This is quite different from the mental picture I was using (which was that "marshalling" was an umbrella term encompassing both playing cards and attaching them as duplicates, as long as it was done during the marshalling phase). It also fits perfectly with ktom's conclusion that the rules restricting the marshalling of Shadows cards have no relevance to their being put into play as duplicates.

Thanks (as usual) for your help.