So... I am very confused about this. On page 48 in the Tome of Blood, there is a section that says that you can use the Ritual of Breaking to put a Daemon into a bike. At that point in time, is it a Daemon weapon or is a Daemon Engine?

I suppose in the end you could do both with a bike and it really depends if you merely want to treat the bike's weaponry as daemon weapons, or if you want to make a proper daemon engine out of it.

Ritual of binding to be right. It is count as a engine more specificity as a "daemonic mount"

Ok... so if I took the stats from the Legion Combat Bike (Tome of Blood pg 49) and added the stuff from a Daemonic Engine from the new Tome of Decay. What exactly would that thing be statted out as, assuming that it had a Flesh Hound of Khorne inside of it.

OOh Fleshound bike! Awesome!

You actually can't use the Daemon Engine rules to make a Daemon Engine out of a bike. Daemon Engines have to be Size (7) or higher. Bikes are too small. And it's a Daemon Weapon because it's not a Daemon Engine. The Ritual of Breaking (not Binding) is used to ensure that it can never slip your control in the same way as you take Daemonic Mastery Tests to maintain control of Daemon Weapons.

BYE

" Daemonic: The bike has a Daemon trapped within and

A legion combat bike has integrated weapons. The daemon weapon traits make perfect sense for those.

By the rules, you should use the rules for Daemon Weapons, but if you have access to the Tome of Decay, you could always just go for the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself, and then the rules for Daemon Weapons specifically for any integrated weapons.

It's not RAW, but it should work and might make more sense.

It'd make them mighty powerful.

Accursed TL-Bolters? Yikes! Impervious? Warp Weapon Bolters? Razorsharp Bolters? Voidchill Bolters? Crippling Bolters... wow. And they're just the unaligned ones!

BYE

By the rules, you should use the rules for Daemon Weapons, but if you have access to the Tome of Decay, you could always just go for the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself, and then the rules for Daemon Weapons specifically for any integrated weapons.

It's not RAW, but it should work and might make more sense.

The rules for Daemon Engines already cover what happens to pre-existing weapons. They'd just be unlimited ammo TL-Bolters (assuming they survived the transformation).

BYE

It'd make them mighty powerful.

Accursed TL-Bolters? Yikes! Impervious? Warp Weapon Bolters? Razorsharp Bolters? Voidchill Bolters? Crippling Bolters... wow. And they're just the unaligned ones!

BYE

Treating it as a simple daemon weapon has certain advantages, but it doesn't remove the core flaw of a bike: You are squishy.

A proper daemon engine bike will allow to remove that flaw to an extent, at the cost of the daemon weapon's improved damage output.

Letting a player pick between durability and damage output seems like a good thing for me to do GM-side.

By the rules, you should use the rules for Daemon Weapons, but if you have access to the Tome of Decay, you could always just go for the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself, and then the rules for Daemon Weapons specifically for any integrated weapons.

It's not RAW, but it should work and might make more sense.

The rules for Daemon Engines already cover what happens to pre-existing weapons. They'd just be unlimited ammo TL-Bolters (assuming they survived the transformation).

BYE

I know, but by the rules, you're already supposed to use Daemon Weapons anyway.

By taking the rules for Daemon Engines for the bike itself and the rules for Daemon Weapons for the weaponry, you get something that feels a lot more right. With the rules for Daemon Weapons alone, all you really get is a bike with extra dakka.

So you're saying that you could combine the Daemon Weapon and Daemon Engine rules to create a Bike that is better than both?

That seems to be picking and choosing the rules to get the best possible combo.

BYE

Perfectly within the rules, really, and works for any daemon engine. I'd totally let a player do it, too. With all those ritual rolls he should be burning infamy soon.

So you're saying that you could combine the Daemon Weapon and Daemon Engine rules to create a Bike that is better than both?

That seems to be picking and choosing the rules to get the best possible combo.

BYE

Not at all, I'm saying that you should combine the Daemon Weapon and Daemon Engine rules to create a bike that makes sense.

Unless you want to argue that it makes perfect sense that specifically the weapons would somehow get nothing, just because you use Daemon Engine rules for a bike.

Or if you want to argue that it makes perfect sense that a bike with a daemon bound within it would simply affect the weapons.

A bike is more than a weapon. And a bike is more than an engine, too.

At no point should you treat the basic mundane weapons on a Daemon Engine's shell as "Daemon Weapons", rolling for attributes and whatnot. That's not how it works at all (for standard Daemon Engines). As we're not talking about a standard Daemon Engine (as bikes cannot form the base of a Daemon Engine), then I still wouldn't combine the two.

Perfectly within the rules, really, and works for any daemon engine.

Not perfectly within the rules actually, as the bike is too small to be a Daemon Engine.

I guess my point is that if you're intentionally ignoring the size requirement of a Daemon Engine's Shell to make a Bike into a Daemon Engine, then you shouldn't combined them with the Daemon Weapon rules as well. Make them a Daemon Engine or make them a Daemon Weapon. Don't make them both.

BYE

I meant more the general princinple than the specific example of the bike(and I know personally, if I bring up size, the first MacGuyver will be "make the bike bigger or use multiple bikes..."). Combined rites are perfectly possible, but very, very unsafe and increase the likelyhood of being attacked by daemons.

So I'd allow it. I also wouldn't cut them any slack when they run out of infamy, botch another roll and a daemon attacks them.

At no point should you treat the basic mundane weapons on a Daemon Engine's shell as "Daemon Weapons", rolling for attributes and whatnot. That's not how it works at all (for standard Daemon Engines). As we're not talking about a standard Daemon Engine (as bikes cannot form the base of a Daemon Engine), then I still wouldn't combine the two.

Perfectly within the rules, really, and works for any daemon engine.

Not perfectly within the rules actually, as the bike is too small to be a Daemon Engine.

I guess my point is that if you're intentionally ignoring the size requirement of a Daemon Engine's Shell to make a Bike into a Daemon Engine, then you shouldn't combined them with the Daemon Weapon rules as well. Make them a Daemon Engine or make them a Daemon Weapon. Don't make them both.

BYE

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Daemon Engine rules really should've encompassed more sizes. I realize that there's only so much room, but still.

The Daemon Weapon rules really doesn't do a Daemon Engine justice, whether we're talking about a bike or a behemoth. At the same time, the Daemon Engine rules are clearly meant for very large daemonic constructs, and a bike using the Daemon Engine rules might end up being utterly insane.

After reviewing things, I'd stick to the Daemon Engine rules and tightly moderate them as a GM, toning them down, ignoring any modifiers that affects weapons.

Then I'd generate the weapons attached to the bike using the Daemon Weapon rules, keeping it similarly toned down and restricted, representing the overall weapons (meaning that even though it has two bolters, I'd assign the daemon weapon effects to all the bolters equally, not make each of them an independent weapon).

Dammit, the daemon engine rules are really cool. We need separate rules for sub-Size (7)-vehicles.

Well... Going off the chat in the Tome of Decay, which basically states that at Size 7 the Strength and Toughness is 50, and given that a Legion Combat Bike is a Hulking (aka Size 5) the Strength should be a 30, which to me make no sense what so ever due to the fact that it is still a piece of metal and daemonic essence so I would say the Strength and Toughness should be at a 40.

Moving down the the Wounds, I think it should be about 30 Wounds, if you follow the exponential growth of the thing. I didn't do the math needed to give an exact number that the graph would follow but I ballparked it in saying that a bike that is meant to have a Space Marine on it makes sense.

The Traits would be the same, Auto Stablized, Machine (X) and Daemonic Engine (X) (Equal to twice the Binding Strength) and fear (2).

Alright.... Assuming we put a Fleshhound into this beast of a machine, Flesh Hounds having on average these stats.

WS: 49

BS: --

Str: 45

T: 40

Ag: 30

Int: 15

Per: 60

WP: 40

Fel: 10

Inf: --

So... The 'stats' of this bike would be, if I did everything correctly would be.

Fleshhound Daemon Bike

Tactical Speed 13/26/39/78

Wounds: 30

Armor: 20 (Due to the base 14+6 for Machine Trait)

Traits: Daemonic, Intergrated Weapons, Reinforced, Daemonforged, Daemonic Engine (X)

Talents: Sprint, Ambidextous, Independent Targetting, Two Weapon Wielder

With these stats

WS: 49

BS: --

Str: 40

T: 40

Ag: 30

Int: 15

Per: 60

WP: 40

Fel: 10

Inf: --

This is a VERY rough idea of what it MIGHT end up like... atleast this is the bare mininum before we decide if we are allowed to add Daemonic Engine weapons on it, like the Hellram and such.

There are already stats for a daemon bike in Tome of Blood. It might be a good idea to base them off of that.

Yes BUT those suck compared to a Daemonic Engine...

Not everything can be a Daemon Engine.

BYE