I have started to read the "The Horus Heresy", and one character got my attention, Garviel Loken, he was perhaps one of the best and definitely the smartest space marine I have read about so far. Okay, I haven’t read all of the books just yet, soon done with ”false goods”, but have read on different sites that he leads a defense force of loyalist on Istvaan III, where they presume he died after the building he was inside collapsed.

Is there any chance that he might have survived the battle? And if he could, where would he be now and doing?

Also, where lies Isstvan III?

I assume he died, purley because I'm so annoyed with "everything went black....then you wake up a few months later". Also, Istaaven is..I think the Galactic Southwest?

The true depth of Loken's character is evident in the fact that the reader doesn't want him to die, and since it isn't outright stated (unlike Torgaddon) that he does... we have that hope he might just have made it. However unlikely that prospect may be with Horus' orbital pounding of Istaaven III as a final nail in the coffin to the few Loyalists left alive on the surface.

That being said, given the choice to spend a day with any of the characters from the Hersey series (so far)... Garviel Loken would be my first choice.

So, it is simply a matter of how badly you want to bring Loken into play at this point. You could run a whole storyline about tracking down a SM's body, recovered from Hersey days and being held in stasis somewhere, only to have it be Loken at the brink of death. Depends on how willing you are to twist the cannon into what you desire to happen.

Nah, he's dead- we know that his armour was breached in the duel with Kharn, and in the fight with Abaddon. As a result, the life-eater virus will have going to be* able to get in to his flesh, and he'd be turned to mush. It's a pity, but there we go. I'd far prefer for him to have survived the battle, and wound up in stasis/sus-an or something, but it wouldn't happen like that.

*I'm never sure what tense to use when describing something in our future, but is the past from the point of view of the setting- future preterite?

Alasseo said:

You've never read the first Space Wolves omnibus then because Ragnar uses a repair cement to fix up a brother wolf's armour. So logicaly the Luna Wolves would have had the same supplies back then. so he could have still survived.

Alasseo said:

The Lifeeater virus was a nonissue at that point - bear in mind that when it was released it was burning through the seals in the armour of those still on the surface - those who survived did so because they took cover in bunkers and similar and managed to avoid direct exposure. Beyond that, the virus itself was noted as being extremely fast-acting but with an extremely short lifespan - by the time Horus gave the order to fire the Vengeful Spirit's lances at the surface to ignite the vast amounts of gas produced by billions of tonnes of decomposing bodies, the Virus had already passed through its entire lifecycle... otherwise the subsequent battle couldn't have happened.

Shadowkat: I'm thinking of putting him in the game somehow, but I ain't sure about the details of things. Like, here the heck did Istaveen lie? Southwest? How far from Terra then? And what would the Imperium think about him? Would they accept him or have him executed?

How long can a Space Marine live anyway?

Hakazu said:

I don't believe it is ever said just Where Isstvan III is, and most likely any information as to its where abouts would be expunged from records. It wasn't exactally a crowning glory for the Imperium... and it was also the start of the Hersey which in itself led to the loss of massive amounts of knowledge. However, it has to be far enough away from Terra that they would be completely in the dark as to the happenings going on there but close enough that Horus could make the run to Terran space in a decent amount of time.

http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html is a fairly good map to bookmark by the way. It doesn't have Isstvan on it that I could see, however that does leave it up to you as a GM where it could be.

How the Imperium would think of him is a hard question since it would depend on who you are dealing with. Loken, loyalist or not, carries in his body the geneseed of Horus... that alone would cause most to execute him on the spot for being tainted. You have to remember in the 41m true Hersey knowledge isn't common, everyone knows that Horus turned on the Emperor... but not the details. The details have been lost or buried so deeply in the vaults of Terra that most have forgotten that they are even there. Just look at the cost for acolytes to pick up the forbidden lore dealing with the Hersey and that will give you a base for how valuble that knowledge is.... and how dangerous. Your pc's have a good chance of not knowing who or what they have found since it is rare to have dealings for Space Marines in general. Also, don't forget ven speaking with Loken would be hard... due to the shifts in Gothic language since his time.

Now, your pc's might be open to listening to Loken's story first before making a choice on the matter. That depends on their personalites and willingness to deal with someone who calls Horus his primarch and Abaddon the Dispoiler his Brother.

As to how long Space Marines live, well the ongoing storyline seems to suggest that they are possibly immortal but really don't know how long they live... since none of them live long enough to find out! So, that is up to your belief on the matter as well.

Well, barring the various renegades in the warp (and stuff like the Eye of Terror, the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath and a few other oddball places), the oldest recorded marine was/is 1600-odd years old and counting (ignoring time that may or may not have been spent in stasis or sus-an hibernation).
At least, that's the oldest mentioned marine on active duty, there are mentions of some marines in rear-echelon posts who were retired from front-line posts due to age or injury, although their ages have not, to my knowledge, been mentioned.

It is possible that he could have spent time in a stasis chamber or vault (in which case, no time would have passed for him- c/f Roboute Guilliman, who has been hovering on the brink of death due to quasi-daemonic poison since shortly after the Heresy, also c/f Inquisitor Jaq Draco, who spent a century hiding in stasis in Sol's Kuiper belt/Oort cloud). It is also possible that he could have spent time in hibernation thanks to the sus-an membrane. The longest time spent in hibernation followed by a successful re-animation was officially just under a millennium (935 years, iirc, by a veteran sergeant of the Dark Angels), although there was one occasion of a Dark Angels sergeant being reanimated after drifting through space in hibernation since the Heresy, although the sergeant in question did get pulled into the Eye (by a power or powers unknown, presumably either the Emperor or a greater daemon of Tzeentch), and so the time experienced by him may vary from the time experienced by the outside universe. Of course, the entire incident was hushed up by the Dark Angels and the Inquisition both.

Of course, all this assumes that he survived Istvaan III. I've already expressed my opinion on that matter, so I'll simply say you'd have to find some way for him to survive, and I doubt you can come up with something plausible.

As for the location of the Istvaan, it hasn't been stated, but if we look at the general thrust of the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet, they are heading out to the Sagittarian arm. If memory serves, that would be galactic east by north-east, just trailing of the Tau Empire. Of course, that is complete speculation.

And Hakazu: that map is seriously off in some regards- the Sabbat worlds are in completely the wrong Segmentum. Doesn't stop it from being a cool map though...

Alasseo: Well, since I don’t know that much about the game and the only map I have over the 40k is the map in the rule book, so this help me quite much more than the last one. But thanks for the advice.

I will have to think out a good way to put him into the game, somehow it will work. Thanks for all of your help, guys ^^ Just one last questions to you all.

- How can I see my personal messages? I can’t find it in my links on the account page. Yeah, I know this isn’t the right place to ask but there isn’t any support part in this forum. Thanks anyway.

I'm afraid you can't- this forum doesn't support it. There is apparently a 'private email' function, but that only works with your friends list. There is actually also a support forum elsewhere on the boards, you can find it by going to the section 'Fantasy Flight Games'. It's in there.

Well he could survive the collasp, if lucky enough, he could come to the conclussion that he could not get up through the rubble , so dug down through the cracked and collasped catacombs , to find an old forgotten bunker , built specificly for a long dead (slightly corrupt) arch bishop who had reserved himself a specical camber , with a escape shuttle with a stasis field installed, but no warp drive. So clearing the launch ramp for various rubble and came to the surface he saw the battle was ended and bormbardment was in progress ( so staying on the planet was suicidal), and took the shuttle off the planet its navigation systems failed and it ended on the direction of calaxy , where it was picked up by a rogue trader who upon seeing the space marine in stasis contacted a inquisitor he knew. This inquisistor then send some acolytes and a mechanicus team to check out the space marine.
(the mechicus team to revive the space marine and inspect this Dark age of technology shuttle).

Well his survival is unlikely but with the emperors blessing and shear luck it could happen.

Alasseo: Okay, thanks. I will have a look there ^^

Sarius: Well, I might agree with you that the chance is very low, but he sure seems to have some hell of luck so I chance on that he might still be alive out there. And thanks for tip about how the players might get involved in it.

Thanks for all of your help, folks XD

Sarius said:

"Look, why don't you just go and check out LV-426 yourself?"

Sorry, flashing on Aliens with that shuttle idea.

Hmm had completely forgot about that old movie.

Sarius said:

Considering that the 'nids were probably completely based off of the xenomorphs from the series (specifically the second one, which I quoted), I'd say Aliens is a fantastic xenos adventure template.

In fact, the first Alien could almost be a space hulk style adventure.

Ignore every move made after the first 2. They just aren't that good compaired to the first two.

New to the forums and just saw this thread. Garviel Loken is a great character. I actually didn't like him much when he was first introduced (I concurred with the "starch-arse" comments), but as time went on he was just so very cool. That opening trilogy was just smashing, and I love the possible "Loken is still alive" possibilities mentioned here.

TheFlatline said:

I cant say I agree. The third movie is quite good, but I remember not liking it much when I were a lot younger, but as I grew older I noticed that I appriceated many aspects of the third film (the gritty style and presentation mostly). And considering that the director (same guy who directed the Se7en and Fight Club) had some serious issues wioth 20th Century Fox when directing it, it turned out quite good when it could have gone straight down the toilet.

SPOILER ALERT!

DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVENT SEEN ALIEN 3!

Also I love the fact that Ripley committed suicide at the end of the third movie (something I really hated when I were younger, because to me it meant that no more sequels with one of my favourite heroines could be made). But now in hindsight I feel that it made her character that much stronger yet human at the same time. Partly she did it to rid the world of the threat of xenomorphs, but partly she just seemed so tired of her life (her daughter and family being dead long since, and both "Newt" and Dwayne Hicks died in the shuttlecrash and old Bishop being a pile of junk) and the nightmares that would have driven a normal person insane. Her death was both an act of defiance against the Weland Yutani corporation and a release for Ripley's nightmare-wracked soul. And that kind of poetic and moral concluscion are a bit more "sophisticated" than standard sci-fi action movies are able to pull off.

There are so many things that make that movie stand out from the rest of the franchise, you just have to put on the "mature" glasses while watching it and put away the "oh yeah! Im gonna se space marines and aliens fighting in space!"-glasses for a moment.

The movie I like the least is of course the fourth one (it reeked of franchise-riding), but at least it didnt stink completely like it could have. And although the Ripley-clone was even more blatant franchise capitalization, Sigorney Weaver is such a great actress that she managed to portray the clone as something "alien" rather than human so no viewer would confuse the long dead human Ellen Ripley with this new clone.

The Alien vs Predator movies however should not even be considered when discussing the alien franchise.

Excuse the slight thread-hijacking but I felt that Alien 3 needed some much deserved defending because it has taken a little to much beating from the mindset of young sci-fi fans over the years...

Varnias Tybalt said:

I'll go with this, as long as you concede that Sanaa Lathan is completely hawt!

To get back on topic: The Horus Heresy happened 10.000 years ago. The oldest non-Dreadnaught Space Marine on record is Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels, weighing in at 1.100 years of age.

Maybe first-generation Astartes like Loken are entitled to longer lifespans than the average M40 SpaceMarine, but I doubt that they'd reach 10.000 years without outside influence like, say, living in the Eye of Terror...

The most setting-consistent way to bring Loken into M40 would be inside the Sarcophagus of a Dreadnaught, as its occupant is effectively immortal.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed, a Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnaught, actually fought alongside Leman Russ during the Heresy.

Actually, the veteran sergeant who recruited Dante is apparently still alive and kicking in a combat position (and as such is presumably around 1200-1600 years old). Unfortunately, I forget his name, and can't find the first-hand reference to cite

Haywire said:

The lifespan of an astartes is pretty much unlimited. It has been mentioned throughout Horus Heresy so many times that Space Marines are effectively immortal and do not suffer the effects of old age, which is why they can live to be more than a millenia old.

The only reason why a Space Marine would die before that time is because of the rather "hostile enviroment" they have to subject themselves to. Namely the worst areas of the battlefields in the 40st millenium.

The only reason for interring a Space Marine into a dreadnough body is if he has sufferd such griveous wounds so he cannot survive. And of course, once in the sarcophagus of a dreadnought, "survivability" in battle increases dramatically (before he had to rely on power armour to save him from enemy fire, now he is effectively a walking tank). Which is why dreadnoughts can become as old as they do.

Being immortal and "not suffering the effects of old age" are not the same, but I agree with your view that their living conditions are by far the most important factor when it comes to the lifespans of SpaceMarines.

The Sarcophagus is also a sophisticated life support device that enables the occupant to sleep for centuries or millenia, something he couldn't achieve with his Sus-an Membrane implant alone.

And after surviving a virus bombardment, fighting Abaddon and being buried under the side of a building chances are high that Loken was ripe for dreadnoughtification anyway...

how the hell are you going to bring him in! there is no way he coulda survived that long. I mean seriously, thats a few millenia or so, I doubt even a space marine has that type of longevity.

Ah, I see that some here are well versed in novels (the blood angel and space wolf series precisely)