[Resolution] Flaming Pitch Tower vs. Risen from the Sea

By Maester_LUke, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

Had this "discussion" with Wrecking Ball on the drive back to MN yesterday:

If I use the Flaming Pitch Tower (CoA F18), on an opponent's 3 STR Greyjoy character that can take attachments (Grey Garden Master-at-Arms, for example), is it legal for them to use Risen from the Sea (ITE C187) for the save? It raises there strength (but only to 4, which less the negative, is still at 0), and it adds an attachment. If I'm reading FPT correctly (and by extension, most attachment-restricted burn), they only have to be absent an attachment to target them... the addition of the attachment after the fact is not any protection from the application of the effect.

Therefore, it would not be a legitimate save, as the character would not be removed from the terminal state?

Limited Response: After you win a challenge by 4 or more total STR, kneel Flaming-Pitch Tower to choose a character without attachments. Until the end of the phase, that character gets -4 STR and is killed if its STR is 0. (Limit 1 Limited Response per round.)

Response: Save a [GREYJOY] character from being killed. Then attach this card to the saved character(counts as a Condition attachment) with the text "Attached character gets +1 STR."

The rule is that you cannot use a save when a character is the victim of a terminal effect unless that save also removes the character from the terminal state.

Risen from the Sea will not remove a 3-STR character from the terminal state created by Flaming Pitch Tower because:

#1 - It does not raise the STR high enough (character still "dies at 0")

#2 - Since the "without attachments" bit is a target restriction , adding the attachment after the target is chosen does not "undo" the initiation of the effect, so the full "-4 STR" still applies

So the Greyjoy player could not play Risen at all in this situation.

(Note: If either of you are looking at #2 and saying "then why can Risen from the Sea save a 1-STR character from Flame-Kissed?", keep in mind that on the attachment, the "no other attachments" part is a play restriction on a constant effect whereas here, it is a target restriction on a triggered ability. They end up behaving differently.)

A question about Flame Kissed:

If I have a 3 STR character in play and my opponent plays a Flame Kissed on him, can I play an attachment before my opponent can cast a Forever Burning on my poor character?

Reading the core rules it seems that both the "Any Phase" triggered abilities (or "Marshalling") and play a character (or attachments) are Actions, and players cannot take 2 consecutive actions unless the other player decide to pass.

So in the end:

1) My opponent plays Flame Kissed on eddard stark, for example

2) I decided not to pass and I play Ice on Ned (or maybe I marshall a Midnight Sentry to pump his strenght)

3) Now my opponent cannot kill my Ned with only 1 Forever Burning

Is that correct, or my opponent can play Flame Kissed AND Forever Burning before I can marshall Ice or Midnight Sentry?

You are entirely correct in your analysis about consecutive actions. Fame-Kissed and Forever Burning are two separate actions, so you will always have an opportunity to take your own action between your opponent taking those two to kill a 3-STR character.

The only thing I would caution is that when this takes place during Marshalling, be careful about who's turn it is. Remember that you can only Marshall new cards during your own turn in Marshalling. The only way it affects the scenario you outline is in the options of what actions you can take between your opponent's Flame-Kissed and Forever Burning. So for your "1-2-3" above, the options of playing Ice or Midnight Sentry will only work if it is your turn in Marshalling and your opponent knelt the 2 influence and used Ambush to put Flame-Kissed on Eddard. If it is your opponent's turn in Marshalling and he/she paid 2 gold to simply play Flame-Kissed on Eddard, you would not have the Ice/Midnight Sentry options because it would not be legal for you to play attachments/characters from your hand at that point.

(I'm sure you knew that last part, but it's usually a good idea to note when a practical example works in one situation but not another.)

Thank you very much for your answer. I suspected it worked that way, but I wanted to be sure.... Off course my example was intended to take place only if it's my turn to marshall, but it's always better to specify in order to avoid confusion.

Thank you again