Lucky dice.

Definetly flying skill.

You can make a good list or be given one, but if you don't know how to fly it, you're screwed. And I learned it by teaching the game. When I show the game, I prebuild the lists. There is some that is too complicated to fly for new players; the way some lists work on synergy and formation flying, a new player won't be able to capitalize with it. Even with 'easier' to fly list like Han Shot First, I know I'll beat them with suboptimal lists.

List building skills become important only when you fly against players of your level.

I feel like I need to add my two cents.

Squad < Skill

but...

Squad < Skill < Dice

You can play against a 10 year old noob, but if his/her reds are hot and your greens are cold, you're.. well the other fellas at your FLGS are gonna be singin' your hilarious ballad for a good long while...

Dice certainly plays a part in this game, but I'll still put skill over them.

When I teach the game to a new player, if I want to beat him, I'll beat him, regardless of dice. Against a new player, you can easily outmaneuver him so he has no shot against you or suboptimal one. I'll never play PtL-Interceptors or Phantoms against a new player, that would just anger him away from the game.

You can play against a 10 year old noob, but if his/her reds are hot and your greens are cold, you're.. well the other fellas at your FLGS are gonna be singin' your hilarious ballad for a good long while...

How hot is hot and how cold is cold? Sure, dice matter, but they should only matter if you're rolling them relatively infrequently. The more dice are rolled, the more their outcomes will approach the mean.

Of course, there's always Voodoo.

Dice certainly plays a part in this game, but I'll still put skill over them.

When I teach the game to a new player, if I want to beat him, I'll beat him, regardless of dice. Against a new player, you can easily outmaneuver him so he has no shot against you or suboptimal one. I'll never play PtL-Interceptors or Phantoms against a new player, that would just anger him away from the game.

Oh I know. It was really more of a joke.

And yeah, a bit off topic, but when teaching new players how to play I actually try to lose a ship or two, just so they can get to know the fun of killin' ships.

You can play against a 10 year old noob, but if his/her reds are hot and your greens are cold, you're.. well the other fellas at your FLGS are gonna be singin' your hilarious ballad for a good long while...

How hot is hot and how cold is cold? Sure, dice matter, but they should only matter if you're rolling them relatively infrequently. The more dice are rolled, the more their outcomes will approach the mean.

Of course, there's always Voodoo.

Again, just a joke. Though I should probably point out that once they're out of the "brand new to the game" phase, as in they have a working knowledge of all the mechanics of the game, I pull no punches. When they lose, I'm happy to explain to them the strategies I used, or forced them into using, so that they can take that information and integrate it into their own tactics. A lot of the new players at our local store have gotten very good very fast, thanks to the instruction provided by me and also by my friend Matt. it's actually very gratifying to observe. (And I also think it's why our store seems to deviate so far from "The Meta", since none of our players original "flight instructors" were/are prone to following it.)

Again, just a joke. Though I should probably point out that once they're out of the "brand new to the game" phase, as in they have a working knowledge of all the mechanics of the game, I pull no punches. When they lose, I'm happy to explain to them the strategies I used, or forced them into using, so that they can take that information and integrate it into their own tactics. A lot of the new players at our local store have gotten very good very fast, thanks to the instruction provided by me and also by my friend Matt. it's actually very gratifying to observe. (And I also think it's why our store seems to deviate so far from "The Meta", since none of our players original "flight instructors" were/are prone to following it.

Interesting.

So, is it your theory that X-Wing communities without 'flight instructors' will be more likely to follow the meta than communities that have flight instructors like yourself and Matt who are averse to the Meta?

My community here in Portland (there are several, but I think the one with the largest population orbits two FLGSs) doesn't really have much in the way of 'flight instructors' who play such a central role. At the same time, while I've seen quite a few Phantoms, this does not seem to have evolved into a much greater popularity of the YT or other turret ships since Wave 4 emerged on the scene. I don't know why that is.

Customizable card and miniature games all have some sort of strategy when creating a competitive deck or army. That is half the fun in playing these games is that you have the flexibility in adjusting your strategy so that you can still make your deck/army/squadron a little more competitive.

However simply having the "top build" doesn't make you a "top player". Lets go to Hearthstone I know a totally different game but the build and play mechanics make for a perfect example on how strategy for these type of games works. For one you have the build phase where people make a deck out of 30 cards (depending on how vast their collection is) and make the deck. Now for the most part the top players do post their decks that get them all the way to legendary rank online for all to see, and many people do build those decks by buying enough packs until they get the cards or can trade them in the crafting system. Now for many of those players it can get them far but still they wind up short around the 11-12 ranks. Not even in the golden single digits and far from the legendary ranks. Simply building the "tournament winning deck" does not make a player a "tournament winner". The player has to play the deck a precise way and know when to play certain cards what to mulligan and which cards to play against which type of deck, you cant play the deck the same way against an aggressive Paladin deck as you would against a control Warlock deck.

So I would say the same goes for X-wing. Sure there are allot of options but I would say that just about any style of squadron has the capability of winning against any certain style of squadron. You will just have to play it differently. What maneuvers and plays that might have worked against a super falcon will not necessarily work against a Tie Swarm or "Echo" build.

I'll make a blanket statement:

Luck > List Match-up > Player Skill > List Build

Wait, are those supposed to be arrows or greater thans? I feel like you might have meant to say that the other way around.

I'll make a blanket statement:

Luck > List Match-up > Player Skill > List Build

Wait, are those supposed to be arrows or greater thans? I feel like you might have meant to say that the other way around.

Well it is a dice game, you can't do nothing if you roll all blanks and your opponent rolls all critical evades. ; )

Now I know it is a game that is heavily designed on placement. One fellow player described it as chess with dice, however I corrected him stating once you put dice in it it is no longer a chess game. However everyone know the best defense is to stay out of firing arcs. A different player describes it as the Mr. Miyagi defense, "When he hits don't be there."

Again, just a joke. Though I should probably point out that once they're out of the "brand new to the game" phase, as in they have a working knowledge of all the mechanics of the game, I pull no punches. When they lose, I'm happy to explain to them the strategies I used, or forced them into using, so that they can take that information and integrate it into their own tactics. A lot of the new players at our local store have gotten very good very fast, thanks to the instruction provided by me and also by my friend Matt. it's actually very gratifying to observe. (And I also think it's why our store seems to deviate so far from "The Meta", since none of our players original "flight instructors" were/are prone to following it.

Interesting.

So, is it your theory that X-Wing communities without 'flight instructors' will be more likely to follow the meta than communities that have flight instructors like yourself and Matt who are averse to the Meta?

I'm just thinking that maybe it could be. Honestly not sure. But Matt and I pretty much grew the scene here. Many of our players were not people who already played/liked the game, and found a home for it here, but rather people who attended the game store on other business, saw us play, and came into the game through that curiosity. As such, many of them didn't really have anything like a set play style or strategy coming into it. Oddly enough, our store's meta is so different from "The Meta" as to be unrecognizable. For starters:

1. Falcons are almost nonexistent. When players do use it, they often lose, and then say that they don't like the ship.

2. Interceptors are EVERYWHERE. About 75% of our store either exclusively uses Imperial, or prefers their use. And of those players, many of them like to have at least one Interceptor. Carnor Jax and Soontir Fel are some of our most commonly played ships.

3. Phantoms are almost nonexistent too. With the exception of Phild0's Imdaar Alpha victory and the 2-3 matches I've played with mine, no player who's used the Phantom has won. The only possible exception to this has been Epic games, but both times a teammate has used one in Epic they were tabled (even when the Imperials later went on to win).

4. Defenders are used a fair bit: and they kick arse.

Honestly, I don't actually know if this is our influence or not. Really it's just a guess as to why things are the way they are here. The other big part of it is likely that very few or our players bother to do things like coming onto this forum, so they're not exposed to all the meta talk.

Again, just a joke. Though I should probably point out that once they're out of the "brand new to the game" phase, as in they have a working knowledge of all the mechanics of the game, I pull no punches. When they lose, I'm happy to explain to them the strategies I used, or forced them into using, so that they can take that information and integrate it into their own tactics. A lot of the new players at our local store have gotten very good very fast, thanks to the instruction provided by me and also by my friend Matt. it's actually very gratifying to observe. (And I also think it's why our store seems to deviate so far from "The Meta", since none of our players original "flight instructors" were/are prone to following it.

Interesting.

So, is it your theory that X-Wing communities without 'flight instructors' will be more likely to follow the meta than communities that have flight instructors like yourself and Matt who are averse to the Meta?

I'm just thinking that maybe it could be. Honestly not sure. But Matt and I pretty much grew the scene here. Many of our players were not people who already played/liked the game, and found a home for it here, but rather people who attended the game store on other business, saw us play, and came into the game through that curiosity. As such, many of them didn't really have anything like a set play style or strategy coming into it. Oddly enough, our store's meta is so different from "The Meta" as to be unrecognizable. For starters:

1. Falcons are almost nonexistent. When players do use it, they often lose, and then say that they don't like the ship.

2. Interceptors are EVERYWHERE. About 75% of our store either exclusively uses Imperial, or prefers their use. And of those players, many of them like to have at least one Interceptor. Carnor Jax and Soontir Fel are some of our most commonly played ships.

3. Phantoms are almost nonexistent too. With the exception of Phild0's Imdaar Alpha victory and the 2-3 matches I've played with mine, no player who's used the Phantom has won. The only possible exception to this has been Epic games, but both times a teammate has used one in Epic they were tabled (even when the Imperials later went on to win).

4. Defenders are used a fair bit: and they kick arse.

Honestly, I don't actually know if this is our influence or not. Really it's just a guess as to why things are the way they are here. The other big part of it is likely that very few or our players bother to do things like coming onto this forum, so they're not exposed to all the meta talk.

What is notable is how much the influence the phantom has had on list builds...lots of turret/ion/stress/high ps builds...just no phantoms to fly against!

If you're a good flyer, as long as you understand the basics of squad building, it shouldn't be a big barrier.

Good squad building doesn't mean you just use whatever is seen as being one of the best builds. It is knowing your strengths, and coming up with combinations that surprise people.

Three of the best skills to develop for this game are:

1. Spatial estimation, I know it has a better name, but correctly estimating where your maneuvers will take you is really important.

2. Deducing where your opponent will be, and taking advantage of it.

3. Seeing the big picture of the battle. Don't get too wrapped up in every individual ship, it'll lead you to ignore other parts of the battle.

These skills are rewarded by ships like the interceptor. Of course, a 3-ship Elite Interceptor list will struggle against a Double Falcon. But that doesn't mean you have to completely change your style, just MODIFY if a little bit.

Instead of Soontir, Jax, and Phennir, maybe try, a couple of Royal Guards and a mini-swarm?

One of my favorites Is two named interceptors, a bomber, and a couple ties. (Bombers make really good bait to keep people off the flanking interceptors)

I'll make a blanket statement:

Luck > List Match-up > Player Skill > List Build

Wait, are those supposed to be arrows or greater thans? I feel like you might have meant to say that the other way around.

Oh silly me, I meant:

Luck <3 List Match-up <3 Player Skill <3 List Build XOXO

I love flying interceptors. My favorite ships are phantom, interceptor, and a-wing I love the mobile ships and I can't wait for the mobile ships in scum to come out. That being said I don't think 4 interceptors is all that competitive but I say that not because interceptors aren't good but that I don't think that all of anything one thing is that great. While its easier to play to its strengths and your natural play style its a whole lot easier for your opponent to exploit its weaknesses. (I do realize swarm is a thing but the sheer numbers swarms put up mitigates its weaknesses)

Flying skill is more important then list building skill. You can beat someone who has a better list by flying to maximize your strengths and their weaknesses. The issues comes into play when how much better do I have to fly my list then yours to win. And some lists are pretty hard counters to others. And then you have luck. If someones dice won't roll blanks you will lose and vice versa if their dice roll nothing but blanks in a game you will win. Skill building or flying has nothing to do with it during those games and they will happen. Also if you take two players of the exact same flying skill it will come down to what lists they brought assuming no inopportune mistakes while flying.

Again, just a joke. Though I should probably point out that once they're out of the "brand new to the game" phase, as in they have a working knowledge of all the mechanics of the game, I pull no punches. When they lose, I'm happy to explain to them the strategies I used, or forced them into using, so that they can take that information and integrate it into their own tactics. A lot of the new players at our local store have gotten very good very fast, thanks to the instruction provided by me and also by my friend Matt. it's actually very gratifying to observe. (And I also think it's why our store seems to deviate so far from "The Meta", since none of our players original "flight instructors" were/are prone to following it.

Interesting.

So, is it your theory that X-Wing communities without 'flight instructors' will be more likely to follow the meta than communities that have flight instructors like yourself and Matt who are averse to the Meta?

I'm just thinking that maybe it could be. Honestly not sure. But Matt and I pretty much grew the scene here. Many of our players were not people who already played/liked the game, and found a home for it here, but rather people who attended the game store on other business, saw us play, and came into the game through that curiosity. As such, many of them didn't really have anything like a set play style or strategy coming into it. Oddly enough, our store's meta is so different from "The Meta" as to be unrecognizable. For starters:

1. Falcons are almost nonexistent. When players do use it, they often lose, and then say that they don't like the ship.

2. Interceptors are EVERYWHERE. About 75% of our store either exclusively uses Imperial, or prefers their use. And of those players, many of them like to have at least one Interceptor. Carnor Jax and Soontir Fel are some of our most commonly played ships.

3. Phantoms are almost nonexistent too. With the exception of Phild0's Imdaar Alpha victory and the 2-3 matches I've played with mine, no player who's used the Phantom has won. The only possible exception to this has been Epic games, but both times a teammate has used one in Epic they were tabled (even when the Imperials later went on to win).

4. Defenders are used a fair bit: and they kick arse.

Honestly, I don't actually know if this is our influence or not. Really it's just a guess as to why things are the way they are here. The other big part of it is likely that very few or our players bother to do things like coming onto this forum, so they're not exposed to all the meta talk.

I'm going to keep this in mind as my son and I start playing in our new city and FLGS! The last I heard they had very few XWing players, Imdaar Alpha saw only four participants and one was from out of town!

I plan on attempting to get a league started there, and would like it to be more "fun and interesting" than super meta! I'll keep these points in mind and see if mentoring can help the situation! Not to mention, play my Interceptor or XWing builds I really like flying!

You know, I actually just thought of a reason Falcons may not be used much. It has to do with me and matt in a way, but not in the way I first thought of.

See, having had lots of time to play against each other, our skills grew at about the same rate. We also saw tremendously quick iteration cycles in building strategies and counterstrategies to each other, and that includes Falcon builds. But then, we take that information into a much more shallow pool of skills (and in that I mean people who haven't had the time or practice, not saying that the other players are inherently inferior). This means that people who still don't totally know how to fly the Falcon are taking them against pilots who have fully evolved counter-Falcon strategies. That would lead them to believe the ship was not worth it, when in reality it is.

This may be borne up by the fact that the Firespray is much better represented, since there are more Imperial players who use it more often, and very effectively.

I think we over estimate the effect of dice. There a few times when things either go really great or really terrible for us and those moment have heightened emotional value, and as such are over represented in our memories.

This isn't just my opinion this is based on current psychological theory. (About which I a admittedly not a great expert). I am, if not an expert, well trained on random behavior. A game whose winner is determined by a single random event, is very random, and the ability for the variance of that random event to effect out comes is huge. However if the outcome of a game is determined by dozens of random events, it becomes much less likely that the randomness will be as much of a determining factor.

The overall deviation (sd) of random a random event is cut in half if you simply repreat that event 4 times. A single turn in x-wing can result in perhaps a dozen dice rolls.

My point is, yes, rare events happen with the dice in this game and they can totally suck / totally rock depending how it goes. But by definition these are rare events. Yes, I have lost games because of bad dice, but I have also lost games to bad builds. However by far th most games I have lost have come down to not flying as well as my opponent.

(The same thing can be said for my wins, but I seem to hav a clearer retrospective on my losses than my wins)

Yes, it's called Selective Memory. And it's usually in play most when you remember something that reinforces a pre-existing bias the person has, such as something like "black people don't tip." Even if they tip or stiff their servers just as much as other folks, someone with this bias in their mind will selectively forget the black families that tipped them well and instead only remember the ones that stiffed them, thus "confirming" their bias. Our brains are geared to try to make ourselves happy, and we've observed dopamine release in subjects who "prove themselves right". Hrathen, I believe something like this is what you're talking about?

Yes, it's called Selective Memory. And it's usually in play most when you remember something that reinforces a pre-existing bias the person has, such as something like "black people don't tip." Even if they tip or stiff their servers just as much as other folks, someone with this bias in their mind will selectively forget the black families that tipped them well and instead only remember the ones that stiffed them, thus "confirming" their bias. Our brains are geared to try to make ourselves happy, and we've observed dopamine release in subjects who "prove themselves right". Hrathen, I believe something like this is what you're talking about?

I'm not sure it is exactly the same phenomenon, but it is similar. It is more a matter of remembering events that are dramatic rather than memories that confirm bias. However if a player believed they always had bad (or good) dice rolls, selective memory would defiantly apply.

However if a player believed they always had bad (or good) dice rolls, selective memory would defiantly apply.

Bingo.

a national championship winner could still win with a squad of interceptors or another less used list?

Could, depending on who that person is playing. Take Doug Kinney vs Paul Heaver, the 2 world chaps, and give one a 4 Tie Interceptor list vs a Fat Han... And Han will win most every time. Because it's a better list, played by two people of fairly equal skill.Now pair either one of them up against someone who isn't that good, and sure they could win with a interceptor list.That said there are bad lists, 6 naked HWK's is not a good list no matter who's flying it.

I have gone on record many times saying that I will gladly play a 6 hwk list if someone will loan me 6 hwks! The potential is totally there! No one is playing it. Most people are incapable of playing t due to investment cost. Besides, you certainly have the tactical advantage: you can bet they never played against your list before and when squad building they never considered 5-6 hwks as a potential list.

I used this list:

Won in 3 rounds, only lost Soontir and destroyed Chewie and 2 x Z-95. Just focused on Chewie and arc dodged the Z-95. Interceptors are far from useless imho, you just have to play them with care.

Tbh took me about 100 games before I really learned how to use them, but now they are my favorite ship (Soontir is just awsome!)