resurrecting this thread b/c i love legacy.

guys i'm working on a legacy banned list. help me out with this. please don't post yoga mastery b/c it's not going on the list and it does not matter in legacy, any deck can throw more than enough base damage to f yoga players over.

SPECIAL EVENING NEWS REPORT!!
Answers to yoga mastery in legacy:

Whimsy, Lost Memories, The Curse Broken, Impetous, Ring Veteran, Program Malfunction, Trade your passion for Glory, roam the world, all of rashoteps blanking stuff(esp KNEEL BEFORE ME), Impetous, Nakoruru, lesser of many evils, experienced combatant, etc. you can also yoga telport it, yoga adept it, cc hax(tons of cards do this even some characters) it etc. NOTE THESE ARE JUST PERMANENT ANSWERS, not one shot answers as in they can tap it for the whole turn, nom it up etc.

YOGA MASTERY DOES NOT MATTER IN LEGACY. even if every single enhance you play gets negated, you can still throw more than enough base damage to crap all over yoga. even playing yoga perfect in legacy gets you killed sometimes b/c your card pool is so full and you are milling yourself.

there are so many enhances you have to deal with in legacy that yoga sucks most times, you have to negate the most key ones and let others through. and like tag said earlier in the thread without yoga some decks would be too free, way too free.

Cards that aren't banned currently that need to be imo in legacy

Chun Li, WAY TOO GOOD esp with leaping commando kick. i don't even want to imagine playing against this deck.

Shinobi tradition: nuff said

Ukyo, as much as i hate to say it, seeing 13 cards on turn 2 with all of evils options in legacy is way too broken, look at my ukyo deck in db forums not trying to brag it's just true, ask anyone who's played that deck, they feel like they can't win most times.

Psycho focus/kunai/chain throw: one of these cards needs to go imo. way, way too good together. my promo ukyo deck is nothing without these cards.

Absurd strength: i'[m on the fence about this, i think it does need to go, but at the same time it's nice to kill that control/and or mill deck before it npe's the crap out of you.

You will not escape: way too good and gives control decks no chance in mirror matches, whoever goes first wins.

Experience combatant: way too good in legacy. order is so free in legacy, one or maybe two of it's commit jank needs to be banned.

Cards that maybe should come back?

matt kohls unerrated? hehe maybe not but imagine the jank!d

kasumi gaki: YES PLEASE hah j/k

lotm should come back in legacy, there is much worse in legacy lol.

Defender of the empire? MAYBE

lets get this discussion back up and running.

also i agree with kirk, legacy players need some kind of prize to play for. i'd love to get 700 foil impetous and have them be legal

IF you can get DOTE unbanned for legacy Scott morrigan comes back .

dont even need DOTE you can just play Fight for the Future, just as good.

Hayamachop said:

Not even close dote you could always draw up and dark empire is all you need to fight for the future you also give your opponent cards and access to the ability.

anybody comes back with that jank, promo alex and g stamp, OH BABY!

Scubadude said:

I suppose but if you have just as many cards in your hand o_o; im sure you can block whatever you need even after you reduced it. its like an extra mill? haha all i know is someitme i couldnt afford to draw with so many cards in my hand I would mill. All i know was defender caused way too many problems back when it was legal (almost as bad) LoTM? Im scared to see what would happen if it came back into legacy

DotE is just another tier of broken; Lord of the Makai was only as popular because it was just so solid and had really good symbols. DotE, you just bent the game over your knee and broke it in half, while LotM just does things that are vaguely fair a little bit faster. LotM makes you cough, DotE makes you throw up. etc

Chunz absolutely needs the hammer in legacy... but it'd be really, really funny to see her get owned by opening hand 2x Big Cyclone. Unfortunately, 1x Leeping Commando Kick is much more stable than 2x Cyclone, and much more NPE too

I'm partial to banning Chain Throw out of that trinity of terror; it's just way too good on its face (that whole "stun 3 throw" thing with good numbers to back it up...) plus all the disgusting loops = just ugly. Kunai has a lot of evil things for it too (oh I need a 20 dmg Tiamat's to win? NO PROBLEM; or free commit 1 for Naks/discard 1 for Ukyo/Cassie) but I want it to stay legal so my baby Sophitia** can stay alive to jank people for another generation. Psycho Focus is only unbalanced IMO if you can loop it somehow, and there ain't a whole lot for that if Chain Throw - Kunai gets broken up.

waffle's last paragraph just summed up the gayness of promo ukyo in leagcy. turn one p focus is game if you check a 4 or higher. esp when i see 13 cards on turn 2. gotta love it.

i think zaslameal could get unbanned. legacy is soo fast already, he looks tame compared to some of the stuff that is legal (example: promo ukyo).

he only gets faster. Our playgroup likes to play banned cards every couple of months or so (at the end of our legacy month) but with some cards there is no point for him to be played.....although you can say that with just about any deck

Hayamachop said:

he just seems like one of the tamest cards on the banned list along with LotM and chester's.

Tame is a subjective term... I mean, we actually have a near-reprint for Turbo, one of the most violently broken cards on the list, and two seperate (albiet condition-ridden) reprints of To The Bone (a 1cc Cervantes attack that costs 3 life per attack to momentum, and Jaguar Tooth, a +4M attack which has to be played as a complete block to go off).

Build some legacy decks up (there are actually several in the deck building forums if you want :] ) and playtest P-Z with some friends. If you have good results, post the deck, get some discussion going on it (ie, see how it could be optimized further, or if you missed a degenerate interaction of his) and redo the playtesting... even if no one at FFG cares, you could probably get him unofficially unbanned IF he is actually balanced.

I don't know if that'll happen, though -- I mean, he has guaranteed fatal-on-half-block T2 Genkotsu Stamp.

Wafflecopter said:

but honestly how many legacy decks don't kill turn 2 gauranteed. in legacy someone has either won or locked out the oponent by turn 2 every game, that's the fun part

The biggest problem with this game is that to a large extent you are only renting your cards. There's no support worth speaking of for legacy.

I really think that FFG should do a legacy equivelent to the greatest prize in gaming, except it should be a character that is only legal in Legacy. Blam! Doesn't devalue the GPiG, yet it still pretty **** awesome.

As far as monthly prize support for Legacy ... What might make the prize support more worthwhile is if people could request what they would get. Legacy support is usually totally crap. Mostly characters that everyone already has 2-3 of.

In all honestly, something realy needs to be done to make Legacy worthwhile.

I think asking for a Legacy-only character card may be asking too much, honestly. They've got to print 750 copies of it, and from a business perspective they don't really get a whole lot out of it. It'd be a classy move to give the players who supported the game from its inception and want to keep playing like they did years ago something for their time, but -- they took foil out of the game. I understand where James is coming from when he doesn't want to support Legacy; it's not necessarily from a disdain for the format (it might be, but I don't know the guy). Rather, it's just the presence of much more pressing concerns that can be adressed in the present, and offer real benefits to the game and the company should they be solved.

well gee printing 700 cards has to cost crap esp when you print them all together. i'm sorry but back in the day the money people spent on cards for legacy/block one play/block two play etc, that was nothing right? god why are most companies so cheap, if you have to give to get in life how come the "man" doesn't give? so unfair LOL

Why does the winner of legacy have to get 700 something copies? Why not just give the winner of legacy a legacy only character but only give them like 20 copies? On the note of what would make legacy more enjoyable is banning you will not escape and making it 6x10.

i'd love to see ywne banned but 6x10 should stay a side event imo. what would make legacy better is a seperate banned list imo.

tannerface said:

I keep being told that 6x10 is a fantasy format that very few people are interested in. Thank you for showing your support. <I love 6x10>

Scott Gaines said:

Okay... so here's the loaded question...

What should that separate banned list be?

Antigoth said:

Gothy you know the box of worms you just opened?

YWNE -- too powerful of a tempo piece, some problematic aggro decks just ignore it outright (oh you YWNE'd my Psycho Focus? Cool I was going to Kunai anyway), screws multisymbol decks, really eliminates the viability of any deck that tries to do anything but orange card blue card (which is limited to few decks/characters which do it better than anyone else, like Ukyo)

One of Chun-Li or Leaping Commando Kick -- It's just disgusting; you get a 2HS and lose 4 life a turn, plus she gets to hock moves at you with virtually no possibility of blocking. Unless you drew 2x Big Cyclone in your opening hand, or she can't find a LCK in her mulligan, this is at BEST a coinflip matchup for virtually anything -- and it's not hard to lose when she's still got all the trappings of a 7HS Air or Void deck backed by the most undercosted end-your-turn since Dark Hado Cassie.

Maybe one of Chain Throw, Psycho Focus, or Kunai -- in roughly that order. Ask Scott Gaines for more info

Beyond that, I dunno if any more action needs to be taken.

B-Rad said:

Actually I opened it in my original post. I don't want bickering and shouting back and forth, but I do want an open discussion, to get a concensus of where people stand on what needs to be done to make legacy more playable.

Wafflecopter said:

And when you do, filter out the words "Shut up", "Crybaby", "answers exist".

Then again you won't be left with much of a post.

Another card I wouldn't mind seeing go in Legacy is Emptyness....

Ultimately I think we do need a seperate Ban list for legacy, and I think it is something that will need monitored regularly, and changed every so offten. But to do that would require a lot more imput and tournamnet level results to look at.

In the end, unless there is a prize that will make people really want to experement and try out new deck combinations, legacy will remain stagnant and played only rarely.

Lets face it, If i'm going to Worlds or Nationals right now, I'm going to spend a lot more time working and testing my deck for standard than I am for legacy.

So I guess what i'm really trying to say is.... What type of prize would motivate people to want to play legacy.

Would it Take getting the Greatest Prize in Gameing (AKA Design your self as a character card)

Would being able to give imput into the creation of a card for regular distrbution be a good enough prize, or would it have to be a card that the winner got to keep and distribute themselves (But not a character card)

Cash prize? (Not likely)

Expensive non cash prize (game system, i-pod, free admission to next years Gencon/origins etc.)

Personally I think being able to help design a card for standard release would be enough of a motivation for me.

Thoughts.....