Tagrineth said:

...you're telling him he shouldn't play one of the game's most-used mechanics: Enhances? Seriously, that's horrible advice. Back when Addes Syndicate was around, I don't think ANYBODY would've advised "oh, just don't play any Responses."

In Legacy, you've got Pieces of Eight, all kinds of Stun and Friends and Rivals, as well as the E-negation we currently have access to.

Cards such as the Void trio (Yoga, Lost Mems, Ring Vet), and a whole hoopla of cards have no place in ANY part of this game.

I know I already said this, but just to restate, prize support for legacy needs to be LARGER, even if it isn't necessarily better.

At can nats 08, Andrew Olexa only used 1 response in his whole deck and i think he got 4th place?

sir_shajir said:

I seriously doubt olexas deck only used 1 response . That would be saying he decked no other responses then other then his character. I dont know if he played air or evil but either case . If it was evil a third of the deck are responses . If it was air then he still had tag along , chesters, feline spike reversal , maki high noble .

But for original topic I dont think legacy needs to have any more banned cards nor will FFG waste time on it. To be honest since they really dont put much time into legacy . Lost memories should definately stay same with yoga. If you take away yoga there will be nothing to stop turn ukyo all day long.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Actually, as I recall there were a lot of people who said just that. Which is one of the reasons why Addes got banned. But there are a lot more answers to Yoga Mastery than just "run no enhances", definitely a lot more than there were when block 1 was all we had.

Unifiedshoe said:

If it makes him feel like a big man Shoe, then I don't really mind

But yes that's what I was meaning

Scubadude said:

Actually he was playing Life Vega and I think his only response was Kung Fu Training. No joke!

Continuing back on topic, if FFG is going to take the time to throw a Legacy World's event, then they should at least get off their collective behinds and pump out some snazzy promos or something. I'm not saying give folks a card, but give them SOMETHING for wading through all their piles of ridiculous jank to build the most ridiculously jank deck of the day. Legacy is something, much like non 4th ed DnD. You play it to embrace your inner power gamer, and built the most disgusting, over the top deck.

They should introduce league legacy kits. Like, keep the cards in their legacy format, but give them a new foil anyways

Come on, holo Strike Heads anyone? =)

It's not a matter of having answers to Yoga Mastery, the card just isn't fun to play against. Since I don't have to play legacy if I don't want to, and anyone running an All/Death/Void character is probably running Yoga Mastery, even off-symbol because it's just so dang awesome. It's not like there aren't more balanced cards like Po8 and No Memories.

I have no interest in playing a game that isn't fun, because that is the intent of a game.

quarzark said:

This

while we all remember the days before cycle hit, we don't remember the day in which the cycle never hit. As such, while it would be fun to play with the older cards, that advent of newer cards would make things a bit tricky at first, especially because, as has already been said, there are probably loops and asshattery aplenty.

I'm excited at the prospect of Legacy, but there's simply too many cards that need the boot, not just so that lesser versions can breathe, but because they were problematic then and they're problematic now.

But Marco! There's ways around first turn kill and free negation! Honest! Just ask folks!

B-Rad said:

I agree. My old legacy decks often had the motto, "If you lose, it just means you need to win faster." =)

Maybe the winner of Legacy Worlds can pick one card and make it legal again?

*...flurry of images of broken-ass Legacy cards*

on second thought...maybe not >_>...

I understand there are some that see Yoga as ok. But it simply is not.

Tag, I love you, but that was horrible advice. It didn't work for Addes, and it won't work for Yoga, ESPECIALLY since enhances basically run 75% of the win conditions in this game. Let's try not to steer back to staleness, yes?

I won't tolerate Yoga. If Legacy makes that big-time comeback, Yoga must IMMEDIATELY go on a completely banned list. And before anyone says there are many more answers to it, I will tell you right now-Two of the biggest answers to Yoga (Chester's and Inhuman Perception) share a symbol (or two) with Yoga. That is all.

HolyDragonCloud said:

Play curse broken it's just that simple, Yoga is not a problem if you just play the cards to get around it. Order has a field day with Yoga, Lost memories, etc. I should know I won Legacy Worlds... lol

See my point about sharing symbols for more information.

Any card that is banned in Standard is banned because it is overpowered or outright broken.

Any card that is overpowered or broken is only more overpowered in Legacy, because more interactions are available.

Recursion specifically is outrageously overpowered, and only gets moreso in Legacy. Military Rank should stay banned forever, in every format.

So I think the Legacy banned list should be identical to the Standard banned list.

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I REALLY like Vermillian's Highlander Legacy Extended suggestion: he proposed that players can play 4x Standard cards + 1x Legacy cards.

I think this is a really good compromise, but maybe it can be modified slightly. Antigoth reminded us that Heel Stomp is not brokezored, but really needs multiple copies to be effective. The same goes for Remy support (which will be Legacy eventually).

So I propose Vermillian's Highlander Legacy Extended, with an additional list of Legacy cards that are 4x legal. This would include cards like Heel Stomp, and Remy support. Any cards added to this list would have to go through an extensive review process first.

The point is that a 1-of restriction would be the default for an Legacy card (to prevent brokesauce), and whoever's managing the Legacy format (ideally FFG) could ease back on that in specific places to keep otherwise decent cards (Vanished Father/Lost a Sister) from being useless.

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I could also see a 2x compromise: a format that's not as restrictive as Highlander, but still very restrictive. This would at least do something to reduce broken combos.

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To address Antigoth's point about "Environment now is not that different from Legacy environment"... I disagree strongly. Okay, yes, LotM makes momentum gen ridiculously easy. But in Legacy you could Hop twice on the opponent's turn, 1-Armed Manoeuooueouevers on your turn, Challenge the Master, and Rolling Storm for craziness.

I like those options a lot better when there's only 1 Hop in the deck, and much less chance of drawing the RS in the opening hand.

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To address the question of support:

People won't want to play legacy tournaments (for the most part) unless there are regular small local-tourney prizes that are playable in ALL formats (standard and legacy). Ideally, these would be a mix of legacy card reprints (like the current Martial Arts Champion reprint) and some new promo cards that are ONLY available by playing a legacy tourney. If, you really want to incentivize Legacy, you have to give it some exclusive promos. (For that matter, there should also be exclusive promos for playing in Limited formats like sealed and draft.)

I like the idea of getting to create a signature Attack/Action as a "3rd Coolest Prize in Gaming." (Not an asset or foundation, though. We have enough overpowered and hard-to-get foundations and assets as it is.)

Another EASY option would be:

Winner of major Legacy tourney (Nationals, Worlds, etc.) gets to choose 1 Legacy character from a list provided by FFG. (This list would NOT include any characters FFG considers overpowered in current Standard.) That character would become Standard legal immediately.

Yes, such legacy characters would be hard to get for new players... but less so than the coolest prize in gaming. Many players would have multiple old copies for trade.

The great thing about this is it requires very little effort and zero money on FFG's part, but it still gives Legacy players a stake in the whole of UFS. The Legacy winners would have a chance to change the Standard format. The past would come back to haunt us.

I think it's a cool idea. I just don't know if it's cool enough .

Legacy worlds winners get to negotiate with FFG to make a certain card from legacy era watermarked for play in standard...? lol

vermillian said:

Keyword being negotiate. While I think it's fair, the cards I see most people wanting back (Yoga, Memories, Rat Chaser, V-Resources) I all disagree with their reprint, and I feel that if FFG wants them back, they will do so as they have for Mark, MAC, Cursed Blood, etc.

Otherwise I don't mind the concept of allowing GOOD cards to come back, like say Awakening, that don't particularly break the metagame.

As far as all this talk goes about highlander, minimizing card options...

First off, I agree with the older issue that we SHOULD only be allowed 3 cards of the same name (with the exception of character cards, not just to avoid confusion, but because character cards are one of the most integral mechanics this game has, but never utilizes).

That aside, old doesn't necessarily mean more powerful, rather, the old UFS we all grew up with basically gave us 10 good cards in a set, and the rest were all garbage throw-aways.

I just think they need to make a prize worth playing for and people would play legacy but as it stands the prize for winning legacy worlds is really nothing more than a title lol

You can ban cards in the format or restrict them but the turnout will still be poor just because the prize support is just not the same as for a standard event it is just lacking that special something that makes most people want to play it.

what i think should happen is that cards should be reprinted throughout sets and not just as foily reprints that way newer players would have access to older cards FFG wouldnt run out of ideas as fast because say 10 or so cards a set would be old cards made new again.....or maybe 5 either way whats wrong with reprinting burning knuckle for terry with new art or like friends and rivals with new art even in a new game it could be very open ended they would just have the same abilities and any copy of the card can be played

HolyDragonCloud said:

Chester's and Inhuman are the bottom-tier answers in my mind, because they don't stop it for more than a single enhance. Sure they do lots of other stuff, but they're no good vs. Yoga Mastery.

All/Death/Void do not have Red Lotus, nor access to the strongest board control pieces (you either give up Chester's or Lost Memories)

TBH the most overpowered foundations I see are Impetuous and Lost Memories. LM is just too perfect a control piece, especially with the brutal quantity of recursion -- if you can get an attack recursion scheme going off Evil, you can just - every turn - play Roundhouse Kick, E Gorgeous Team, E Gorgeous Team, E Gorgeous Team, play the 3 LMs you scooped up, play a Megalo or Red Lotus or something, go. And Impetuous is just unkind -- I hope you don't care what the cards in your staging area do, 'cuz they're going bye-bye.

The argument that "I don't want to play Legacy with Yoga Mastery in the format, it's no fun" is unbelievably lame. I despise Chester's Backing in standard, and that card kills virtually every answer to itself, forcing you to win the control war before you can ever deal with it (and while you try, your opponent goes +life +life +life). It's just not fun on a whole new level.

IF your opponent drops Yoga, and your deck autoloses from then on out, build a better deck. It's just a mistake in deck building -- is "I forgot to put high blocks in my Leona deck, so if my opponent plays Feline Spike I lose instantly" a good argument for banning Feline Spike? No.

Wafflecopter said:

Virtually free negation will always be unfun. It's not a question of "Build a better deck". Building a better deck means improving upon the original design of the deck by adding cards that enable you to enable your winning condition faster or impede your opponent in doing so. When talking about cards of Yoga's ilk, at this point, it's more a question of : "What deck isn't screwed by XYZ cards."

If by better deck you mean something that wins against XYZ cards but fails miserably against anything else, then it's not exactly a better deck, now is it?

Is it a problem card? Can't say : A lot of people think so. I've honestly more of a problem with it's stats than the actual effect (free 6 check for a card that's almost an auto-include? NO. I've this same problem with Makai/Chester, by the by). All I know is that I hated playing against it and hated playing with it, to the point where the game became a chore because every single deck I built had to have something against Yoga Mastery. It wasn't "I must prepare for the eventuality that my opponent will play Yoga Mastery." more than it was : "My opponent WILL play Yoga Mastery."

If it came back in the current meta though I'd almost welcome it because the symbols on it are in dire need of cards that don't suck (even though they should already have plenty, apparently that's not enough).

and Hatman wins this thread.

Wafflecopter said:

not really. It's not my incapability to build a deck that can go around Yoga Mastery (considering you're in my playgroup, you should know this ) it's just that I simply don't want to. I have no desire to think about the card, concieve stratagies around it, and beat it. Since I can avoid not enjoying myself by not playing legacy, I don't need to worry. Since I was asked about what would make legacy worthwhile for me, I mentioned it

quarzark said:

And thank you for that.

I'm a big fan of playing with a bunch of cards that are in legacy, and part of me really wants to see what could be done to make it more enjoyable, so that more people would be willing to play it.

So I really appreciate you taking the time to share this!

And Waffle - No ragging on folks for giving me the information that I'm looking for.